Sebelius heckled during Georgetown graduation speech - Page 5

Scott_Lafrance · #61 May 22, '12, 3:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by estesbob

BOOM....headshot.

**Ridgerunner** · #62 May 22, '12, 3:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy5

One story which I repeat because it seems to hit home. I know a devout Catholic family who had six young children. They followed the approved system of birth control, but, as can happen, the mother again became pregnant. Her doctor (and other doctors) warned her that if she carried the baby full term likely she and the baby would both die. Her priest told her to have faith, that abortion was murder, a serious sin. Against her husband's wishes, she went ahead with having the baby. Both died, as the doctors had warned. She left behind an angry and grief-stricken husband and six young motherless children. The husband speaks out against the Church at every opportunity. He and the family now attend an Episcopal Church.

I'll let your decide how you feel about that situation. I would have made the mother feel free to choose to have the abortion or not. The husband is especially vitriolic about accusing the Church of having celibate clergy who know little if anything about such situations but make the rules.

Since you let me decide, I will say that, while I don't doubt you believe it, I doubt the story itself. The doctors told her that if she carried the baby "full term" they both would die? Normally, a baby who goes "full term" does not die, otherwise it would not go "full term". And if the doctor saw some clinically valid reason to think the baby or the mother might die prior to going "full term", the child would have been delivered, even very prematurely, and nothing in Catholic teaching would have stood in her way.

Does it not strike you as exceedingly strange that no doctor even thought of that? Now remember that the doctors did not tell her, let's say in the first trimester: "You and the baby will both die if you go another week/month pregnant." No, they told her if she carried the baby FULL TERM they would both die, or so you were assured.

There are almost no situations that would have the effect you described, and particularly not if the mother had successfully delivered six children previously. I realize you do not have the medical records, but frankly, nothing about the story, as it was told to you, works.

**estesbob** · #63 May 22, '12, 3:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner

Since you let me decide, I will say that, while I don't doubt you believe it, I doubt the story itself. The doctors told her that if she carried the baby "full term" they both would die? Normally, a baby who goes "full term" does not die, otherwise it would not go "full term". And if the doctor saw some clinically valid reason to think the baby or the mother might die prior to going "full term", the child would have been delivered, even very prematurely, and nothing in Catholic teaching would have stood in her way.

Does it not strike you as exceedingly strange that no doctor even thought of that? Now remember that the doctors did not tell her, let's say in the first trimester: "You and the baby will both die if you go another week/month pregnant." No, they told her if she carried the baby FULL TERM they would both die, or so you were assured.

There are almost no situations that would have the effect you described, and particularly not if the mother had successfully delivered six children previously. I realize you do not have the medical records, but frankly, nothing about the story, as it was told to you, works.

Great pro-abortion story, though. Hits all the right notes. The Church has not only disallowed this poor woman the right to use contraception, resulting in 6 children already, but two MEN, her husband and a Priest coerce her into continuing a pregnancy against her best wishes causing both her and the child to die.

**Ridgerunner** · #64 May 22, '12, 3:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy5

Scott_LaFrance

Perhaps you're right re Sebelius, but I still have my doubts. As for her being refused communion, that seems to have been the decision of the Bishop. Gosh, I see people go forward for communion all the time that are remarried without an annulment, some even permitted to be leaders in the parish. There appears to be an uneven enforcement on this question of who should or should not receive.

One example. A family I have known well over the years left the Catholic Church - 'shirttail cousins' as it were. . Why? They had a family of four children and decided it was wise not to have more. She consulted with the priest and he told her it was a big sin to use artificial birth control. Soon thereafter, they moved to a new community and church. She thought she would consult her new priest on the same issue. He told her it was their decision, just follow their consciences.

This, plus a dozen other factors, some major, some minor, led her to question the consistency and authority of the Church. Anyway, they ended up attending a Protestant church (Methodist) in their new city. They claim to enjoy the 'freedom' they now experience.

Let's see. The lady left one parish (that's what Catholics call them, not "churches") and found another in which the pastor told her birth control is not sinful. So, (plus a dozen other factors, some major, some minor) they decided to become Methodists.

Now, this second priest gave her the "freedom" she wanted and later found in the Methodist church. But that wasn't good enough for her, only the Methodist "freedom" to use contraceptives worked for her. Oh, well, there were those pesky "major and minor" other reasons, too. Yes.

It's certainly possible that you take such stories at face value. Because you are not Catholic, and seem not to have any real understanding of Catholic teaching about contraception and penance, and perhaps out of the wishes of your heart, you want to believe those stories, and do. But even the most perfunctory reading of them shows there are holes in them one could drive a truck through. But again, because you want to believe such things, and because you have come here to persuade us of them, you do believe them or profess to believe them.

But they really don't persuade. Possibly it would be of value to go back to your mentors and tell them this incursion into persuading Catholics to doubt the Church and/or believe in odious people like Sebelius didn't work. Possibly they can provide better materials.

CatholicBoy1957 · #65 May 22, '12, 4:41 pm

Not just any birth control, but "artificial birth control". Which, of course, begs the question as to why to pastor didn't advise them of natural birth control, which would have been acceptable, under the right circumstances.

At least it didn't work on the faithful Catholics here. There are some Catholics here that are so unfaithful, I could probably blink my eyes and they would "self-identify" as something else. Any argument would be sufficient reason to leave. Even the "self-identify" ploy they use, hardly fools those of reasonably sound faith. They only fool their own kind.

AthenaC · #66 May 22, '12, 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by anp1215

Disappointed that a few pro-lifers felt the need to heckle her during her speech. Abby Johnson has the same view, after being heckled during her pro-life speech in Washington. It doesn't do the pro-life side any favors to interrupt and heckle people during a speech.

Before I forget (and without reading the rest of the thread), I agree. I think an organized walkout would have looked cool and sent the right message in a classy way. Think about that picture - as soon as she approached the podium, a bunch of students all stand up in unison and walk out. That would have gotten the right kind of attention.

**buffalo** · #67 May 22, '12, 7:24 pm

TFP leads protest as pro-abortion Kathleen Sebelius goes to Georgetown

AthenaC · #68 May 22, '12, 7:29 pm

Regarding refusing an individual Communion, it is not the primary job of the priest (or Bishop) to police everyone regarding their worthiness to receive Communion. Yes I know plenty of people that shouldn't be receiving Communion (and I tell them so when I can), but the average priest doesn't know the particular circumstances of most parishioners such that he would know for sure that they should be refused Communion.

However, there are a handful of exceptions (but ONLY a handful of exceptions), typically for those Catholics who very publicly, very blatantly support the legalized slaughter of innocents on demand. Those cases are no-brainers where it's abundantly clear even to the most casual observer that these individuals should be refused Communion. I always get a little be excited when I read about a pro-abortion politician being refused Communion. "Yes! Someone is standing for the sanctity of the Eucharist!"

LorenC · #69 May 23, '12, 12:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by AthenaC

Those cases are no-brainers where it's abundantly clear even to the most casual observer that these individuals should be refused Communion. I always get a little be excited when I read about a pro-abortion politician being refused Communion. "Yes! Someone is standing for the sanctity of the Eucharist!"

Here here!! I agree!!!