Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by LittleSoldier

Pagans didn't get everything wrong.

This is very true. St Thomas Aquinas & St Augustine got much from Plato and Aristotle. Our understanding of theEucharist, transubstantiation, is based on pagan philosophy.

[KSU]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

Our understanding of the Eucharist, transubstantiation, is based on pagan philosophy.

Could you be more specific, Michael? I have always believed that our concepts of those matters were independent of Aristotelian concepts, but I am willing to learn.

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo

This is very true. St Thomas Aquinas & St Augustine got much from Plato and Aristotle. Our understanding of theEucharist, transubstantiation, is based on pagan philosophy.

The actual fact that transubstantiation occurs is not a pagan thing.

The language and philosophical equipment we use to describe it when we want to talk about it came from Aristotle, who was the first to define the ideas of essence and accident fully. Aristotle was a pagan but he was one of the best philosophers the world has ever seen. He also described cause and effect in ways that we still have not surpassed to this day. In fact, his description of cause(S) is more complete and explanatory than most people realize and philosophers and theologians still use it.

Among professional philosophers, it is said that everything is still only a footnote to the works of Aristotle. That's a little hyperbole, of course, but not by so much. He had descriptions that were novel in the ancient world and he was a great logician and an extremely observant and prolific writer.

After the library was burned in Alexandria, things went missing and Aristotle's work was kept as an antiquity by the Muslims for many centuries. Around the turn of the 1st millenium it re-entered Europe and people started to translate it into European languages. Then it made its way to Paris and was used by Aquinas to explain Christian theology and this is how it make its way into theology and became part of the classical philosophy that every professional philosopher knows.

Aristotle gave us the language and the logical categories to talk about the world and much of what goes on in it.

[KSU]

Agreed, iloveangels. The point is that I believe our faith in and understanding of the two concepts is not dependent on Aristotelian or other pagan philosophy. I may be wrong, but no one has proved it to me yet.

This is a hoot: even Wikipedia has got something correct to say about it, viz:

QUOTE
Some put forward the idea that transubstantiation is a concept intelligible only in terms of Aristotelian philosophy. But the earliest known use of the term "transubstantiation" to describe the change from bread and wine to body and blood of Christ was by Hildebert de Savardin, Archbishop of Tours (died 1133) in about 1079, long before the Latin West, under the influence especially of Saint Thomas Aquinas (c. 1227-1274), accepted Aristotelianism. (The University of Paris was founded only between 1150 and 1170.) The term "substance" (substantia) as the reality of something was in use from the earliest centuries of Latin Christianity, as when they spoke of the Son as being of the same "substance" (consubstantialis) as the Father.[14] The corresponding Greek term is "οὐσία" the Son is said to be "ὁμοούσιος" with the Father and the change of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ is called "μετουσίωσις". The doctrine of transubstantiation is thus independent of Aristotelian philosophical concepts, and these were not and are not dogmata of the Church. END QUOTE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euchari...atholic_Church

[Holly3278]

I think that all convents should go back to having habits but that is just my own personal opinion. That said, I hope this reform works.

[_Abyssinia]

I read that leader Sister Simone Campbell who is director of a group called 'Network' which works with LCWR, backed a bill in 2009 bailing out Planned Parenthood for more funding. LCWR needs complete reform from the ground up and also 'Network.'

[Michael Mayo]

Originally Posted by KSU

Agreed, iloveangels. The point is that I believe our faith in and understanding of the two concepts is not dependent on Aristotelian or other pagan philosophy. I may be wrong, but no one has proved it to me yet.

Maybe this discussion belongs in its own thread but both Aristotle and Plato as well as other pagan Greek philosophers invented Western philosophical terms and method. That is nothing to be ashamed of. The early Church Fathers naturally took that language and method to articulate and develope the faith. Our Catholic understanding of the soul also derives from Plato.

[jwinch2]

I agree with Michael that this topic is worthy of discussion in its own thread. Here is a recent one that might be worth reviving. I posted an interesting blog piece from a friend of mine who speaks on the subject of Christianity and Pagan practice.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...ighlight=pagan


Peace,

[KSU]

OK, folks, I'm convinced!

Also, I now see how we stole our faith in and understanding of the Resurrection from the Easter Bunny, and in All Hallows' Eve/All-Saints'-Day from The Great Pumpkin.

Hey, maybe this topic isn't all that removed from the LCWR after all!


(Sorry; I am a weak and sinful man.)

[KathleenElsie]

Originally Posted by IggyAntiochus

What's even more disturbing is the comments made by Catholic posters on the NCR page describing it. I know, of course, that the internet is a breeding ground for nutjobs like that..but it's nice to know they have their issues with unfaithful laity just like the rest of us.

It certainly doesn't bode well for the American church, though. In my experience with the average lay Catholic in the US, they aren't too far from propagating the kind of liberalism that this group of nuns does, especially in the northeastern part of the States.

I have found the Reporter tends toward the more liberal trends.

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by KathleenElsie

I have found the Reporter tends toward the more liberal trends.

Understatement alert.

[KSU]

How much disinformation and dishonesty can you find in this article?

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.s...use_churc.html

[_Abyssinia]

Vatican protesters gather in NYC

A group of Catholic activists gathered in front of a Manhattan cathedral Tuesday for the latest protest over a Vatican reprimand of America's largest organization of Catholic nuns.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...-gather-in-nyc

Are these women nuns? If they are, why do they not wear a habit?

Feminist Angela Bonavoglia says the Vatican’s charges against the LCWR 'appear, in some measure, to be true:'

http://www.thenation.com/article/167...guilty-charged

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by _Abyssinia

Vatican protesters gather in NYC


http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/0...-gather-in-nyc

Are these women nuns? If they are, why do they not wear a habit?

Feminist Angela Bonavoglia says the Vatican’s charges against the LCWR 'appear, in some measure, to be true:'

http://www.thenation.com/article/167...guilty-charged

Ah, yes the habit wars. The issue isn't whether they wear habits or not. Some congregations weren't founded with habits. Maybe the women religious you remember seeing wore habits, but not all do--or ever did.

A much bigger issue: They're not nuns. They're sisters.

And the biggest issue of all: The way to handle an investigation and follow up is not to take it to the street in protest, but to cooperate and reform things that aren't right. And do it for the right reasons.

[jwinch2]

If they are supposed to be in habits, then they should be, but it is not up to us to decide nor to judge those whose founder and/or constitutions state that they are not to wear them. What I do care about far more than that is whether or not they are faithful to the magesterium. In addition, do they have any sort of communal prayer/contemplative life to go along with their active apostolates? Active apostolotate sans contemplative prayer = social worker.