Mother mary's perpetual virginity

[Della]

Originally Posted by stewstew03

But apparently you have no problem insulting someone without actually refuting his argument.

I meant no insult, but I do not answer emotionally loaded hypothethical questions. I assume you didn't realize you'd asked such a question.

If "highly favored" is not contrary to revealed truth, then it is not contrary to "full of grace," and therefore does not weaken the faith of believers, which was my point all along.

This is not logical. Besides, I never claimed "highly favored" is contrary to anything, so again, you're arguing using a sophistry. Something can be acceptable but it may not be the best. And many a believer has had his faith weakened by poor translations. Newer translations are returning to "full of grace" because of the misunderstanding "highly favored" engendered.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by Della

I meant no insult, but I do not answer emotionally loaded hypothethical questions. I assume you didn't realize you'd asked such a question.

Do you understand that "sophistry" is a pejorative term...?
Besides, I was not trying to deceive you or distract you in any way - I was being rhetorical.

This is not logical. Besides, I never claimed "highly favored" is contrary to anything, so again, you're arguing using a sophistry. Something can be acceptable but it may not be the best. And many a believer has had his faith weakened by poor translations. Newer translations are returning to "full of grace" because of the misunderstanding "highly favored" engendered.

It's perfectly logical.

You said (paraphrasing):

1. The use of "highly favored" diminishes Mary's standing;

2. The use of "highly favored" is an attempt to cast doubt on the immaculate conception;

3. The use of "highly favored" weakens the faith of believers.

I disagree with each of these points you make. Here is the logic:

Being "highly favored" by God does not place someone in an inferior position to someone who is "full" of God's grace; therefore, calling Mary "highly favored" does not diminish her standing. You have not refuted this point, except to say that you disagree, so it appears we're not advancing the ball toward either goalpost.

The Vatican communicates truth to believers and aims to strengthen the faith of believers. One medium the Vatican uses to communicate truth and strengthen the faith of believers is their website. The Vatican website uses the translation "highly favored." Therefore, I see no reason to believe that use of the term "highly favored" is an attempt to cast doubt on the truth about Mary or weaken the faith of believers.

We both believe the Immaculate Conception is revealed truth. Some Catholic translations (including those found on the Vatican and USCCB sites) use "highly favored" rather than "full of grace." As you later acknowledged, use of this phrase is not contrary to the revelation of Christ given to His Church. Truth is absolute, not relative. If "highly favored" is not contrary to revealed truth, then it is akin to revealed truth. If it is akin to revealed truth, then it is not contrary to "full of grace." If it is not contrary to "full of grace" then it does not weaken the faith of believers.

Given that I took more time than I wanted to explain my logic to you, and all I have received in return is the charge that my argument is "deceptive" and "specious," perhaps you can take some time to explain how my argument is illogical, deceptive, and specious...?

POSTSCRIPT
Have you considered that those who want to argue "highly favored" is substantively different than "full of grace" are employing sophistry? It seems that would be the appropriate response to someone like Matt Slick, for example, who tries to split hairs on the translation of "kexaritomena" in a desperate attempt to diminish Mary's standing.

[hawkeye125646]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Thanks for that handy list.

I know that St. Mary's perpetual virginity was a common belief of the early church. My question specifically pertained to whether those saints, martyrs, confessors, and doctors referred to the same texts as Cat Herder/took similar interpretations from them in support of the doctrine.



When can I meet her? Maybe she can offer this youth some ideas on what vocation and career to pursue...



Amen. I have a great love for St. Mary and ask for her intercession frequently. The questions posed to Cat Herder were intended to help with refining his/her argumentation vis-à-vis a much-contested doctrine regarding our spiritual mother.

St. Mary, pray for us!

Thank you for the clarification...To be honest, what I always like to do, when debating with Protestants is to have 3 or 4 of them, from different denominations, who would show that they all have different beliefs Sometimes, they will see that Sola Scriptura is unbiblical...We NEED to have 1 authority, to bind and loose all decisions for the universal church, established by our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! May God bless you!

[Rocinran]

I don't know why all this is important to our lives as Christians. Mary was our Lords mother and was blessed to have such an honor and I mean no disrespect to her, but, she gets to Heaven the same way we do. By the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
I always thought that Jesus had half brothers in the flesh... one being James. I believe there were others. But, this conversation reminds me of the question "How many Angels can you put on a pin head?"
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 3: 16 says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes (trust in and relies on) in Him shall not perish but have Everlasting Life.
I am happy and full of joy that I am saved by His wonderful Grace and even though I can never live up to His standard. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God!"
All I can do is trust and obey. God is Spirit and those that are led by the Spirit are the Children of God.
So, that being said....I suppose Mary is one of God's Children.
Remember that it was Jesus that gave His life for us...Not Mary.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by Rocinran

I don't know why all this is important to our lives as Christians. Mary was our Lords mother and was blessed to have such an honor and I mean no disrespect to her, but, she gets to Heaven the same way we do. By the Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Have you understood someone in this thread to have stated or implied that St. Mary could or did save herself?

I always thought that Jesus had half brothers in the flesh... one being James. I believe there were others. But, this conversation reminds me of the question "How many Angels can you put on a pin head?"

Well, the doctrine has a basis in Judaism, so the Israelite people into which Jesus was born would have seen the issue as having some weight.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
John 3: 16 says that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes (trust in and relies on) in Him shall not perish but have Everlasting Life.

How do these passages undermine the doctrine of St. Mary's perpetual virginity?

I am happy and full of joy that I am saved by His wonderful Grace and even though I can never live up to His standard. "For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God!"
All I can do is trust and obey. God is Spirit and those that are led by the Spirit are the Children of God.
So, that being said....I suppose Mary is one of God's Children.
Remember that it was Jesus that gave His life for us...Not Mary.

Have you understood someone in this discussion to have stated or implied that (1) "[we are not] saved by His wonderful grace", (2) "those that are led by the Spirit are [not] the Children of God", or (3) "it was [not] Jesus that gave His life for us...[But] Mary"?

The founders of Protestantism accepted St. Mary's perpetual virginity, and did not consider the doctrine to be in conflict with sola Dio gloria. Luther and Calvin (and Zwingli?) were definitely right in this area.

[kirkdickinson]

Originally Posted by hawkeye125646

Ezek. 44:1 . Ezekiel prophesies that no man shall pass through the gate by which the Lord entered the world. This is a prophecy of Mary's perpetual virginity. Mary remained a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus.

You are taking this verse out of context.

1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Verse 3 says he shall sit in it and eat bread before the Lord, he shall enter and exit by the same gate.

This Cannot be Mary's womb.

[wes144]

It is absolutely true and certain that Mary was favored above all women by conceiving, caring, bearing, loving and training her Son, the Son of God.

There is no Scripture or reason that I see that would make her any less holy by having other children through Joseph. Sex is not sinful. It is ordained of God.

Mary is NOT the Mother of God! She is the mother of Jesus' human body. If Mary truly was the Mother of God- she would be the Source and Creator of God! She is NOT!

She is a daughter of God, that was also godly, but not sinless! In two passages Jesus, while respecting His mother, put her and his siblings on the same plane as anyone that obeys the Word of God. Matthew 12:46 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Matthew 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Mary said herself, "God, my Savior". If she didn't need a Savior, she would not have said that. "All have sinned {including Mary} and come short of the Glory of God." Romans 3:23

It was not necessary that Mary be sinless to bear the Son of God. She was consecrated and blessed. Mary is NOT to be worshiped! Jesus told the devil, "Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

There are several great reasons for Jesus to give the care of His mother to John the Apostle rather than the other boys in her family, whether step or blood brothers of Jesus.
Jesus saw that John was the most loving disciple and one that would take care of Mary as if she were his own mother. John was the only one of Jesus' brothers that was at the crucifixion. John was the only one of the boys to that point that had been a part of His ministry. John would outlive the brothers of Jesus and Mary.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by kirkdickinson

You are taking this verse out of context.

1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Verse 3 says he shall sit in it and eat bread before the Lord, he shall enter and exit by the same gate.

This Cannot be Mary's womb.

Only if you take verse 3 to literally mean a Prince is eating some bread before the God of Israel...

I mean, seriously kirk, why not just say - "wait, it can't be Mary's womb because it talks about a gate on the front porch of some sanctuary!!"

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by kirkdickinson

You are taking this verse out of context.

1Then he brought me back the way of the gate of the outward sanctuary which looketh toward the east; and it was shut. 2Then said the LORD unto me; This gate shall be shut, it shall not be opened, and no man shall enter in by it; because the LORD, the God of Israel, hath entered in by it, therefore it shall be shut. 3It is for the prince; the prince, he shall sit in it to eat bread before the LORD; he shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate, and shall go out by the way of the same.

Verse 3 says he shall sit in it and eat bread before the Lord, he shall enter and exit by the same gate.

This Cannot be Mary's womb.

Then what the heck is it? The Temple in question is one that will stand forever. (Ez. 37:28). That rules out both Herod's temple and any future earthly temple. The temple must be one that is made of living stones, i.e. people. Among all people, only Mary fits the prophecy.This is all thoroughly biblical.

[stewstew03]

Originally Posted by wes144

It is absolutely true and certain that Mary was favored above all women by conceiving, caring, bearing, loving and training her Son, the Son of God.

There is no Scripture or reason that I see that would make her any less holy by having other children through Joseph. Sex is not sinful. It is ordained of God.

Mary is NOT the Mother of God! She is the mother of Jesus' human body. If Mary truly was the Mother of God- she would be the Source and Creator of God! She is NOT!

There were lots of issues with your post, but I'll just pick this one... when we (Catholics) proclaim Mary as the Mother of God we mean that she carried her divine Son in her womb (thus, she's the Mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - who is a member of the Holy Trinity).

The Church doesn't teach that Mary is some sort of goddess.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by wes144

It is absolutely true and certain that Mary was favored above all women by conceiving, caring, bearing, loving and training her Son, the Son of God.

Amen.

There is no Scripture or reason that I see that would make her any less holy by having other children through Joseph. Sex is not sinful. It is ordained of God.

Sex in marriage is indeed a good and holy thing. But St. Mary was chosen by God to serve him permanently in a special way.

Mary is NOT the Mother of God! She is the mother of Jesus' human body. If Mary truly was the Mother of God- she would be the Source and Creator of God! She is NOT!

Turning to Luke chapter one, we read:

[41] And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
[42] and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
[43] And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.
[45] And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."

Would you not say that "Lord" is synonymous with "God"? If, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth in effect called St. Mary the "mother of God", why should we not be ready and eager to do likewise?

She is a daughter of God, that was also godly, but not sinless! In two passages Jesus, while respecting His mother, put her and his siblings on the same plane as anyone that obeys the Word of God. Matthew 12:46 ¶ While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Mark 3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee.
33 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren?
34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Neither of these passages show that St. Mary committed sin.

Matthew 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Mary said herself, "God, my Savior". If she didn't need a Savior, she would not have said that.

No one claims that St. Mary did not need a saviour, but rather that by God's grace she did not commit sin.

"All have sinned {including Mary} and come short of the Glory of God." Romans 3:23

But St. Paul does not use "all" to mean "each and every". He writes in Romans 11:26 that "all Israel will be saved", although no one points to this verse to argue that each and every Jewish person that has ever lived will reach heaven.

It was not necessary that Mary be sinless to bear the Son of God.

No one is arguing this way, either. St. Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant, a reality at which St. Luke strongly hints.

She was consecrated and blessed. Mary is NOT to be worshiped! Jesus told the devil, "Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Catholics/Orthodox do not worship St. Mary--they instead give her honour. I'd like to know what you make of the Israelites' actions in the following passage:

1 Chronicles 29:20: Then David said to all the assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king.

Is idolatry being committed here?

There are several great reasons for Jesus to give the care of His mother to John the Apostle rather than the other boys in her family, whether step or blood brothers of Jesus.
Jesus saw that John was the most loving disciple and one that would take care of Mary as if she were his own mother. John was the only one of Jesus' brothers that was at the crucifixion. John was the only one of the boys to that point that had been a part of His ministry. John would outlive the brothers of Jesus and Mary.

But would not Jesus have sought to avoid slighting his blood brothers (if he had any)?

[wes144]

The focus needs to be on Christ, the Only Sinless One! Not His mother, Mary, or anyone else.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." acts 4:12

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1Timothy 2:5

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. 5 ¶ Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: 6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever: Psalm 146:3-6

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

"To the Law and to the Testimony. If they speak not according to this word, it is because there NO LIGHT in them!" Isaiah 8:20

[De_Montfort]

Originally Posted by wes144

The focus needs to be on Christ, the Only Sinless One! Not His mother, Mary, or anyone else.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." acts 4:12

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1Timothy 2:5

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. 5 ¶ Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: 6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever: Psalm 146:3-6

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29


Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

"To the Law and to the Testimony. If they speak not according to this word, it is because there NO LIGHT in them!" Isaiah 8:20

Mary IS sinless, she is the ark of the New Covenant! The old ark was made of wood that didn't decay lined in pure gold. In the same way Christ applied His merits to Her at Her conception, pure, holy, Immaculate.

Jesus had no blood brothers, there was no word for cousin to use so the term brother was used for extended family.

Mary is the first to obey God. She did so perfectly. She doesn't take away from Christ but leads all to Christ. She is God's unspeakable world created for Him alone.

You do not understand the bond of Jesus and Mary. It would be easier to seperate light from the sun, or heat from the fire.

It is not us who have highly honored Her but God himself.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by wes144

The focus needs to be on Christ, the Only Sinless One! Not His mother, Mary, or anyone else.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." acts 4:12

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" 1Timothy 2:5

"Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help."His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. 5 ¶ Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: 6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever: Psalm 146:3-6

"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29

Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17

"To the Law and to the Testimony. If they speak not according to this word, it is because there NO LIGHT in them!" Isaiah 8:20

Non-Protestant CAF members believe everything found in these passages--you have no need to give us a lecture about the central and indispensable role of Christ in our salvation.

You did not address any of the points I raised in my previous post, so I shall reiterate the most pertinent one...

Are God and King David allowing, and the people committing, the sin of idolatry in the following passage (emphasis added)?

1 Chronicles 29:20: Then David said to all the assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads, and worshiped the LORD, and did obeisance to the king.

[Cadellin]

Originally Posted by benjohnson

I think it's pretty clear that the Biblical reference to Jesus's brothers could very well mean ... Joseph's children from a previous time.

No it couldn't. Jesus is called 'Son of David.' This is a title that was given to Joseph's first son. As Jesus is called Son of David he must have been Joseph's oldest son.