How are omniscience and free will not contradictory? - Page 4

yellow8yellowM · #46 May 23, '12, 9:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can't have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you're basically saying "God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do." Essentially there is no "would have done" because God's determining the whole thing. And I can't be the one making those choices, because people who don't exist can't make choices. Not even God could do that because it's nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

Poseidon, go boil a pot of water. Stand in front of it and decide whether or not you will immerse your hand in it. You may not think you have free will, but it sure nice to feel like we do!

yellow8yellowM · #47 May 23, '12, 9:13 pm

Knowledge does not equal causation. Paraphrasing from the Catholic.com:

If you know the sun will rise tomorrow, did you cause it to rise?

Wulfgar · #48 May 23, '12, 9:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

But God has always known everything about my life. Before he even created the universe he knew what choices I would make. And since he knew it then, my life was already determined then, however, I was not yet in existence so I can't have been the one to make those choices. You can say that those are the choices I would have made, but by saying that you're basically saying "God looks at what you would have done and makes it what you do." Essentially there is no "would have done" because God's determining the whole thing. And I can't be the one making those choices, because people who don't exist can't make choices. Not even God could do that because it's nonsense along the lines of a green happiness or an invisible pink unicorn.

Again, the issue is that God's realm of existence has nothing to do with time. He doesn't at one moment "not create", and then at a later moment "create" the universe, because that would mean he is constrained by time. He experiences all eternity at once; what you're saying is that he is preconceiving the actions of a currently non-existent being, thereby "creating" that to-be being's actions ("currently" implies time, though, and thus it's not an accurate choice of word because there's no time where God is, but you get the picture). This doesn't work outside of time, because by definition, there is not time outside of time.

Poseidon · #49 May 25, '12, 6:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow8yellowM

Poseidon, go boil a pot of water. Stand in front of it and decide whether or not you will immerse your hand in it. You may not think you have free will, but it sure nice to feel like we do!

I don't see your point here...

yellow8yellowM · #50 May 26, '12, 9:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

I don't see your point here...

I am assuming you did immerse your hand in the boiling pot of water...Why not? You chose not to because you knew it would hurt.

My point was that even if you believe that we have no free will, you must acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, it sure seems like we do. Even if you think you were predetermined to read my post, go to the boiling water, ponder it, and walk away unscathed, you must admit that it seems like you decided yourself.

Poseidon · #51 May 26, '12, 10:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by yellow8yellowM

I am assuming you did immerse your hand in the boiling pot of water...Why not? You chose not to because you knew it would hurt.

My point was that even if you believe that we have no free will, you must acknowledge that for all intents and purposes, it sure seems like we do. Even if you think you were predetermined to read my post, go to the boiling water, ponder it, and walk away unscathed, you must admit that it seems like you decided yourself.

But seeming like I have free will and [I[actually having[/i] it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.

yellow8yellowM · #52 May 26, '12, 10:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

But seeming like I have free will and [I[actually having[/i] it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.

You are correct on all counts. I did not claim that that they were the same thing. In a roundabout way I am kind of saying who cares if there is so much empty space in between the orbitals of the electrons in your desk. When you slip and your head bounces off of it it sure seems like it is solid, so let's live life with the assumption that it is solid.

In the same way, it seems like we have free will, so let's live life like we do. You must admit that you do live your life this way.

wcknight · #53 May 28, '12, 7:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

But seeming like I have free will and [I[actually having[/i] it are two completely different things. From my point of view the earth seems to be huge, solid, and unmoving, while the sky seems to revolve around it. However we now know this to be untrue through rational inquiry. As another example, my desk seems to be solid, but we actually know that seemingly solid matter is 99.9999% empty space.

BUT you in fact did have free will not to put your hand into boiling water. The fact that everyone here knew in advance that you would not do so, does not make us "cause" you not to do so. The choice was always yours.

I think given our free will God can choses not to 'steer' us on any particular path. He did not want to create robots. What would be the enjoyment in knowing everything that would happen in advance. I think He is capable of seeing eveyrthing in advance, and He is capable of making anything happen that He wants to but I think He simply chooses not to, at least in most cases.

In the case of sending us His Son, that was one of the events that He pre-ordained. Even in the case of Judas, Judas had choices to make, and he made them on his own. Even though God knows our weaknesses, and strenghs, he lets us choose whether we want to follow God's will or our own. Judas' problem was he thought he knew better how to handle things than God, and that will always get you into trouble.

Given the political climate, odds are the pharisees and sadducees would have probably had Jesus murdered anyway. Judas helped in the process but he was not the main or only cause of Christ's death.

Eleve · #54 May 28, '12, 5:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poseidon

So I made the choices before I even existed?

No. You make the choices when you make the choices, but God is able to know about them before you make them. This requires retrocausality, but if you're talking about omniscience then that ship has already sailed.