More on baptism and salvation

snarflemike · #1 Jun 1, '12, 9:53 am

Question: are any people who died before Jesus became Incarnate (and thus before sacramental water baptism) now saved? If so, how?

If the answer is yes, then did Jesus' coming make it HARDER to be saved without sacramental water baptism than it was before he came?

surritter · #2 Jun 1, '12, 10:57 am

Sure, there are plenty. We consider Adam and Eve to be saints in heaven. Abraham, Moses, David, etc.!

They were not admitted to heaven immediately after death, since the gates of heaven weren't opened until Jesus's death. But they were in a temporary place (sometimes called limbo of the saints) that no longer exists.

Though not baptized, they are saved through the means offered to them at the time. And it was still based on Jesus, the primordial sacrament.

That doesn't make it harder now. Everyone is given the same chance to get to heaven, based on the means at their disposal.

snarflemike · #3 Jun 1, '12, 11:54 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by surritter

That doesn't make it harder now. Everyone is given the same chance to get to heaven, based on the means at their disposal.

Does that include babies who die at or before birth?

surritter · #4 Jun 1, '12, 12:40 pm

Most likely. The Church hasn't spoken definitively on the matter of unborn babies, but it seems to me that God can usher anyone into heaven my His own means.
"God is not bound by the sacraments."

snarflemike · #5 Jun 1, '12, 2:00 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by surritter

Most likely. The Church hasn't spoken definitively on the matter of unborn babies, but it seems to me that God can usher anyone into heaven my His own means.
"God is not bound by the sacraments."

I agree with all you've said. There are some, however, who seem to think that it has become harder, or even impossible, for babies to achieve salvation AD than it was for either babies or sinners to achieve (delayed) salvation BC. It will be interesting to hear from them.

snarflemike · #6 Jun 1, '12, 5:12 pm

Just to s:ummarize then,

Prior to the New Covenant:

Unbaptized sinners could be saved (OT Saints)
Unbaptized innocents could be saved (Holy Innocents)

New Covenant:

Baptized sinners can be saved
Unbaptized sinners - let's leave this for another thread
Baptized innocents can be saved
Unbaptized innocents ?????????

InternetWoman · #7 Jun 1, '12, 5:17 pm

From the CCC paragraph 1261

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

surritter · #8 Jun 1, '12, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarflemike

Just to summarize then,

Prior to the New Covenant:

Unbaptized sinners could be saved (OT Saints)
Unbaptized innocents could be saved (Holy Innocents)

New Covenant:

Baptized sinners can be saved
Unbaptized sinners - let's leave this for another thread
Baptized innocents can be saved
Unbaptized innocents ?????????

I think it is unnecessary to subdivide the groups into sinners and innocents. We all have original sin, which since the time of Adam and Eve has kept humanity separated from God.
So, simply say that the baptized and the unbaptized can be saved, though we do not know by what means. You're trying to draw too strict of a line. This does not slight the sacrament of baptism; those who know of baptism and have access to it are obligated to be baptized as the normative way to become adopted children of God. But in other cases, God does what He wills, and those who cooperate can certainly be saved.

Think about people who lived in North America in the year 500. It was the era of the New Covenant, but they had no opportunity to be baptized. Therefore, those unbaptized people could have gained entrance to heaven, although it would have to be through a method unknown to you and me. The only name to put on it is Mercy.

snarflemike · #9 Jun 1, '12, 7:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by surritter

I think it is unnecessary to subdivide the groups into sinners and innocents. We all have original sin, which since the time of Adam and Eve has kept humanity separated from God.

But theologians down the ages have made the same division. They have considered that the fate of those with personal sin may very well be different than that of those with no personal sin.

Quote:

So, simply say that the baptized and the unbaptized can be saved, though we do not know by what means. You're trying to draw too strict of a line. This does not slight the sacrament of baptism; those who know of baptism and have access to it are obligated to be baptized as the normative way to become adopted children of God. But in other cases, God does what He wills, and those who cooperate can certainly be saved.

Think about people who lived in North America in the year 500. It was the era of the New Covenant, but they had no opportunity to be baptized. Therefore, those unbaptized people could have gained entrance to heaven, although it would have to be through a method unknown to you and me. The only name to put on it is Mercy.

Unfortunately, IMO, there are Catholics (and non-Catholics too) who refuse to acknowledge that the Church holds out this hope for the unbaptized. I read one poster here recently who pointed out that the paragraph quoted from the CCC does not rise to the same standard of infallibility as various papal writings and councils that, in the poster's opinion, hold out no hope of salvation for the unbaptized.

**guanophore** · #10 Jun 1, '12, 7:30 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarflemike

Question: are any people who died before Jesus became Incarnate (and thus before sacramental water baptism) now saved? If so, how?

If the answer is yes, then did Jesus' coming make it HARDER to be saved without sacramental water baptism than it was before he came?

God's plan of salvation has been consistent, human beings are saved by grace, through faith. This is how they were saved before Jesus sanctified the waters of baptism. He has now commanded that those who believe are to be baptized, and thus be saved, but it is not a 'works based" salvation any more than OT salvation was "works based". All salvation is based in God's grace, and we access it through faith.

surritter · #11 Jun 2, '12, 5:44 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by snarflemike

Unfortunately, IMO, there are Catholics (and non-Catholics too) who refuse to acknowledge that the Church holds out this hope for the unbaptized. I read one poster here recently who pointed out that the paragraph quoted from the CCC does not rise to the same standard of infallibility as various papal writings and councils that, in the poster's opinion, hold out no hope of salvation for the unbaptized.

Well, I really don't know what to tell you. There will always be people who deny what the Church teaches, and we can only do our best to point to what She teaches. Eventually those folks will have to put another authority above themselves, and I suspect that resistance to that notion might be part of the problem.