Catholic View toward Protestants - Page 2

**JonNC** · #16 May 19, '12, 11:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nita

I'm finding it difficult to find an authoritative source of Eastern Orthodox teachings that would be binding - either on all the EO Churches, or even just on one branch (eg. Greek Orthodox). Eg.:
1) The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Austraila website declares beliefs regarding the Sacrament of the Eucharist (altho they don't use the word "transubstiation") and the Sacrifice of the Mass which they equate with those of the Catholic Church.

For the most part it is only the Orthodox and Catholic churches which hold to the belief that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. Other Christian churches accept Holy Communion as a valid observance. What they cannot accept is the belief that there is a real change in the elements of the bread and wine into the actual body and blood of our Lord.

However, the article also states:

There seems to be some difference between the way Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches understand the “moment of consecration”- at what moment the miracle occurs. According to medieval Latin theology, the “moment” is the moment the priest reads the Words of Institution- “This is my Body…This is my Blood…”. According to Orthodox theology, there is no one moment of consecration, rather the entire Eucharistic prayer- Thanksgiving, Anamnesis, Epiclesis- all form and integral part of the one act of consecration.

While Orthodoxy has always insisted on the reality of the change- the bread and the wine become in very truth the Body and Blood of Christ, it has never however attempted to explain the manner of the change. It is true that sometimes Orthodox theologians will make use of what came out of Latin scholasticism, the term “transubstantiation” (in Greek μετουσίωσης). Orthodox however generally emphasize that the manner of change is a mystery and must always remain incomprehensible. St John of Damascus put it as follows:

http://www.greekorthodox.org.au/gene.../holyeucharist

2) The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America website uses a much looser terminology and you're left not knowing for sure if there is any positive binding theology regarding the Eucharist and Mass.
http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7077

I think I'm sidetracking this thread, so I will cease.

Yeah, maybe we are, but its a great subject, isn't it?

John of Damascus: “… if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit” Love that quote.

Check out this link. It is interesting.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lut...text.html#word

Jon

Nita · #17 May 19, '12, 12:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

Yeah, maybe we are, but its a great subject, isn't it?

Definitely.

Quote:

John of Damascus: “… if you enquire how this happens, it is enough for you to learn that it was through the Holy Spirit, just as the Lord took on Himself flesh that subsisted in Him and was born of the holy Mother of God through the Spirit” Love that quote.

So do I, and was going to include it on my previous post but didn't for the sake of trying to keep it shorter.
I think it is the one thing we all agree upon regarding the Eucharist -- that "how" it takes place is a mystery.
(Transubstantiation refers to "what" takes place, but "how" it takes place is a mystery.)

Quote:

Check out this link. It is interesting.

http://www.helsinki.fi/~risaarin/lut...text.html#word

Jon

It is interesting. Read about 1/3 of it, but intend to go back and read it all.
I really liked the following line from the 11th Plenary:

1. …”The sacraments of the church are the means by which Christ extends his saving work, which took place once and for all in the past, into the history of the church.”

I noticed how the same basic sentence could be used to describe the Catholic teaching regarding the Sacrifice of the Mass by just changing a couple of the sentence's subjects and objects:
(Eg. ”The Sacrifice of the Mass is the means by which Christ extends his saving sacrifice on Calvary, which took place once and for all in the past, into the history of the church.)

But, I did also notice the following (a topic which I think we've discussed in another thread):

7. With regard to the holy eucharist, Lutherans and Orthodox converge in their insistence on the reality of the body and blood of Christ given and received in the eucharistic elements. In this respect, Orthodox speak of the change (metabole) in the elements of the eucharist such that after the invocation of the Holy Spirit (epiclesis) there is no longer "bread" and "wine" but the real body and blood of Christ. Lutherans traditionally say that the real body and blood of Christ are present "in, with, and under" the bread and the wine.

Although the Orthodox don't use the word "transubstantiation", they are saying what transubstantiation means. Guess they don't like philosophical terms.

dnar · #18 Jun 3, '12, 12:22 am

So, is it okay then to listen to protestant preachers?

Examples, Joel Osteen, etc..?

**JonNC** · #19 Jun 3, '12, 3:07 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnar

So, is it okay then to listen to protestant preachers?

Examples, Joel Osteen, etc..?

If you're strong in your Catholic faith. Then again, why listen to Joel Osteen? I wouldn't.

Jon

dnar · #20 Jun 3, '12, 3:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonNC

If you're strong in your Catholic faith. Then again, why listen to Joel Osteen? I wouldn't.

Jon

I wouldn't listen to him either. I was just trying to give an example, and I don't know of any other Protestant preachers...

**JonNC** · #21 Jun 4, '12, 2:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dnar

I wouldn't listen to him either. I was just trying to give an example, and I don't know of any other Protestant preachers...

There's probably a Lutheran one in town.

But you don't have to go there to hear what he must say. You can read the Lutheran Confessions online.

My simple point is that before you do, be strong in your Catholic faith.

Jon

jpelham · #22 Jun 6, '12, 6:24 am

If you'll pardon my directness, God certainly does not call anyone to heresy, and every Protestant sect is heretical. It is also true, however, that if the universal call to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church is obscured or distorted by ambient noise, of the world and its prince, who does his best to confuse things, and the seeker does his or her best to humbly seek the truth, then God's grace is sufficient even for those who, through no willful fault of their own, have been diverted from the fullness of the truth.

aragonjohn1 · #23 Jun 6, '12, 8:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhansen

The CC recognizes varying degrees of truth in Protestant beliefs/theology-knowing that they lack the "fullness of truth" to be found only in the Catholic Church. She calls them "separated brethren" who profess a belief in the Trinity and Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I agree!

theyoungmonk · #24 Jun 6, '12, 9:54 am

While a protestant may be called to any of the valid vocations, in this case the priesthood (/diaconate), they would be unable to fully fulfil that vocation. So they may create some form of shadow/imitation vocation, so it may be possible that said protestant minister is called to Holy Orders, but his heresy stops his understanding of the priesthood and thus he takes the wrong path. Thus Pastor X may be called to preach the Gospel that doesn’t mean he is fulfilling it fully or that God is calling him to preach the parts that are erroneous.

He is called though to holiness and union in Christ’s One Holy and Apostolic Church, as are we all, thus he is most certainly not called to preach protestant heresy.

Ungern · #25 Jun 6, '12, 11:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nita

Although the Orthodox don't use the word "transubstantiation", they are saying what transubstantiation means. Guess they don't like philosophical terms.

This is why I like how our eastern brethren use the term Mysteries to refer to the Sacraments. The full nature of what happens is truly beyond complete human understanding--even though we can experience it in its fullness.

Sometimes we can let our human intellect get focused on the details that we forget that the full nature can not be completely understood with our limited human intellect. This is where faith comes in.

Just my humble thoughts.

Ungern

Danize · #26 Jun 6, '12, 3:42 pm

The Catholic Church teaches that most Protestant churches are still in some imperfect communion with the Catholic Church, the one true and universal church. They derive their verasity and commission to preach the Gospel via this unsevered spiritual connection. The Holy Trinity is one and so too those who acknowledge it as formulated in the Nicean Creed, a creed that major Protestant denominations adhere to. Of course, much of this goes unacknowledged by said Prostestant churches....

jwakja · #27 Jun 7, '12, 6:11 am

In my wothless opinion I look at protestants as people who shun what God has asked or directed us to do on earth in order to attain heaven and be with Him eternally, which isn't easy by my means, and set up their own rules. They essentially tell God "here is how WE are going to act, believe, and worship you regardless of what You have asked us to accept and perform". WE follow OUR rules and demands NOT what You ordered us to do here on earth. In essence, WE do what We want and NOT what YOU want. But please accept this since WE want it and take us to heaven anyway, OK!

richardferris · #28 Jun 7, '12, 6:58 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwakja

In my wothless opinion I look at protestants as people who shun what God has asked or directed us to do on earth in order to attain heaven and be with Him eternally, which isn't easy by my means, and set up their own rules. They essentially tell God "here is how WE are going to act, believe, and worship you regardless of what You have asked us to accept and perform". WE follow OUR rules and demands NOT what You ordered us to do here on earth. In essence, WE do what We want and NOT what YOU want. But please accept this since WE want it and take us to heaven anyway, OK!

I would caution against that strong of a view in all respects. I made my way from Pentecostal to LCMS Lutheran and simply never considered Catholicism because I was raised in Protestant thinking that Catholic teaching/church was corrupt. I was truly seeking truth and wanting to find the most faithful church, which is why I landed in LCMS.

NOW however, my eyes are open to the fullness of the deposit of faith and the authority which is invested in Christ's church - and I am enrolled in RCIA in the local Catholic parish!

I eagerly await full communion with my brothers and sisters in the Catholic church!

jpelham · #29 Jun 7, '12, 7:28 am

Here is a review of Saint Cyprian's examination of the tendency to leave the Church and start one's own in the 3rd century:

http://www.stpeterslist.com/6272/tho...yprian-ad-250/

Athanasius did not leave when most of the Church was infected by Arianism. Learned Luther's studies evidently slighted the example of Athanasius.

rfournier103 · #30 Jun 7, '12, 9:38 am

My view is that we share a love of Jesus, and I truly pray that we can all be reunited one day AS WE SHOULD BE. I embrace ALL followers of Christ as my brothers, and I would welcome any and all who wish to join us, regardless of their previous affiliation.

That being said... men like Jack Chick, Ian Paisley, and James White make it very hard for me to be charitable sometimes and I am forever thankful that these so-called 'defenders of true Christianity' are in a distinct minority. Their anger and hatred is stunningly, and embarassingly repugnant.

I guess it could be said I hold two views... One for your everyday God-fearing Protestants, and another for the hate-mongers; who are so blinded by their hatred, they refuse to see the love, message, and charity of God, Jesus, and the Catholic Church.