Divine Liturgy of John Chrysostom in Greek: translation question

[japhy]

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America has the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in Greek (and an English translation) on their web site. I would like to know if someone here can give be a very exact translation of the following Greek phrases from the Divine Liturgy. I am particularly interested in knowing what form of the verb (e.g. subjunctive) is being used.

Εἰρήνη σοι τῷ ἀναγινώσκοντι.

Εἰρήνη πᾶσι.

Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος εἴη μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν.

Καὶ ἔσται τὰ ἐλέη τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων ἡμῶν.

Εὐλογία Κυρίου καὶ ἔλεος ἔλθοι ἐπὶ σέ.

Also, is there a Greek liturgy which uses the (translated) phrase, "(May) the Lord be with you" or "The Lord is with you"?

I ask about this because I'm curious what precedent there is in the Latin Rite for the phrase Dominus vobiscum used in the liturgy to be subjunctive ("(May) the Lord be with you") rather than indicative ("The Lord is with you"). I'd like to see what the Greek liturgies say.

[rowlands]

General English translations are:

Εἰρήνη σοι τῷ ἀναγινώσκοντι. Peace be with you who reads.

Εἰρήνη πᾶσι. Peace be with all.

Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος εἴη μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Καὶ ἔσται τὰ ἐλέη τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ μετὰ πάντων ἡμῶν. And the mercies of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ shall be with you all.

Εὐλογία Κυρίου καὶ ἔλεος ἔλθοι ἐπὶ σέ. The blessing and mercy of the Lord be with you.

One presumes the originals were parsed and properly understood by the translators. Many liturgical translations in recent years have been carried out by committees. The aim is usually to provide an equivalent and meaningful usage without being bogged down by trying to reproduce 'word for word' 'inflection for inflection' and 'case for case/declension for declension/conjugation for conjugation' the intricacies of Greek and/or Slavonic grammar which may have no precise equivalents in English - let alone variations between US English and British/English English :-).

"Also, is there a Greek liturgy which uses the (translated) phrase, "(May) the Lord be with you" or "The Lord is with you"?" No, but it occurs in 'Theotokos and virgin rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you' - but that is a direct quotation from St Luke's Gospel.

In the Latin rite, does not the bishop say Pax vobiscum?

[japhy]

Originally Posted by rowlands

Εἰρήνη σοι τῷ ἀναγινώσκοντι. Peace be with you who reads.

Εἰρήνη πᾶσι. Peace be with all.

Ἡ χάρις τοῦ Κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ καὶ ἡ ἀγάπη τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ Πατρὸς καὶ ἡ κοινωνία τοῦ Ἁγίου Πνεύματος εἴη μετὰ πάντων ὑμῶν. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Εὐλογία Κυρίου καὶ ἔλεος ἔλθοι ἐπὶ σέ. The blessing and mercy of the Lord be with you.

In those four examples, the use of "be" is the subjunctive, right? As in, "May peace be with all," etc.

Originally Posted by rowlands

The aim is usually to provide an equivalent and meaningful usage without being bogged down by trying to reproduce 'word for word' 'inflection for inflection' and 'case for case/declension for declension/conjugation for conjugation' the intricacies of Greek...

Well, the issue I'm trying to resolve is why English translations of Dominus vobiscum in the liturgy use the subjunctive ("The Lord be with you") rather than the indicative ("The Lord is with you").

Originally Posted by rowlands

"Also, is there a Greek liturgy which uses the (translated) phrase, "(May) the Lord be with you" or "The Lord is with you"?" No, but it occurs in 'Theotokos and virgin rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you' - but that is a direct quotation from St Luke's Gospel.

In the Latin text of St. Luke's Gospel, the angel says Dominus tecum and it is translated into English (in the Douay-Rheims, the NAB, the RSV, etc.) as "The Lord is with you," rather than "The Lord be with you." So the question is, why is this phrase translated into English in the indicative in one place, and in the subjunctive another.

Originally Posted by rowlands

In the Latin rite, does not the bishop say Pax vobiscum?

Well, the priest or bishop says that in the Rite of Peace, and it is translated as "Peace be with you" rather than "Peace is with you".

The bishop uses the greeting at the beginning of Mass Pax vobis, which is also translated as "Peace be with you" (although I think "Peace be to you" is more accurate).

[Formosus]

I do not know if it is a subjunctive use of "to be" in these prayers. Its difficult to tell since they use the understood "to be". Most likely they are subjunctive(in the latin) since that is commonly used for prayers. In Greek, I imagine they are probably optative and subjunctive. Phrases like "Let us complete our prayer to the Lord" are probably subjunctives, and "May the Grace of Our Lord etc etc" are optatives. This is my limited understanding on the matter. If there are some examples that do not use "to be" but some other verb, it would be easier to demonstrate what I mean.

[Aldarion]

I cannot speak to the Greek, but the Latin in the Mass and in the Vulgate does not have the verb "to be" at all. Dominus vobiscum is literally "The Lord with you." Dominus sit vobiscum would be "[May] the Lord be with you" and Dominus vobiscum est would be "The Lord is with you." Latin suppresses the verb "to be," so it could be either the subjunctive or the indicative. Whereas in the passage in the Vulgate which you cited, Gabriel is stating that the Lord is with Mary, in Jn 20:26 (and similar) the Lord's words are translated Pax vobis when He is wishing that peace be to His apostles in the same way that "Shalom" is the Hebrew greeting wishing that peace be with the person spoken to, but it literally means just "peace." In conclusion, any form of the verb "to be" is absent in the Latin and since the priest (or bishop) is wishing us peace, the subjunctive is the correct translation.

I have a suspicion that the verb is suppressed in the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom as well, but I do not know it, so I cannot say for certain.

To rowlands: When a priest celebrates Mass, he says "The Lord be with you," but when a bishop celebrates Mass, he says "Peace be with you."

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by Aldarion

I cannot speak to the Greek, but the Latin in the Mass and in the Vulgate does not have the verb "to be" at all. Dominus vobiscum is literally "The Lord with you." Dominus sit vobiscum would be "[May] the Lord be with you" and Dominus vobiscum est would be "The Lord is with you." Latin suppresses the verb "to be," so it could be either the subjunctive or the indicative. Whereas in the passage in the Vulgate which you cited, Gabriel is stating that the Lord is with Mary, in Jn 20:26 (and similar) the Lord's words are translated Pax vobis when He is wishing that peace be to His apostles in the same way that "Shalom" is the Hebrew greeting wishing that peace be with the person spoken to, but it literally means just "peace." In conclusion, any form of the verb "to be" is absent in the Latin and since the priest (or bishop) is wishing us peace, the subjunctive is the correct translation.

Indeed, and I've also tried to make this same point countless times. At one point in the Mass Pax sit semper vobiscum (May or let peace be always with you) the subjunctive is clear. In Dominus vobiscum (like Dominus tecum in the Hail Mary) the Lord IS with you. I believe it was the Anglicans who introduced the subjunctive, "The Lord be with you." If Polish can be considered any kind of standard for translation, it's Pan z wami ("the Lord IS with you") which seems to be not only theologically but also factually correct. The subjunctive would be Niech Pan będzie z wami but it isn't that way in the text.