Dealing with ｓｔｒｏｎｇｌｙ 'feminist' views when discussing religion...help needed? - Page 2

Lady Love · #16 Jun 7, '12, 11:24 am

Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.

Not only that, women are bombarded with advertisements constantly telling us we are not good enough, not valuable, and constantly degrading our intended dignity. We have been trained to protect ourselves from men (as though they are an enemy).

I did some feminizing training to re-feminize myself. This involved learning to believe that I was lovable, beautiful, worth protecting and being provided for and to be receptive to being served...just receptive in general. I also had to learn that I did not have to protect my self FROM men but be protected BY men. It was so hard to de-program myself. It was amazing. Once I made the shift, men are always doing things for me, helping me, defending me, etc. I really feel like a Queen and men really feel like heroes. Men seem to get so much satisfaction out of helping me, serving me and seeing me smile. They often comment on how much they appreciate that "I let them help me." because so many women deny them.

I had to learn that it was a man's desire and nature to be a Hero. I learned that in order for men to be my hero I had to let them take the stage a little. I had to learn not to steal their thunder by putting them down. It was the strangest thing for me to build a man up because I was afraid that if I did then they would think they were too good for me and stop helping me or abandon me. When in fact the opposite was true. The men became MORE loyal to me.

My fiance' wants to do EVERYTHING for me. Gosh, I wouldn't even have to leave the couch if I didn't want to. All he cares about is that I am happy. If I am happy then he feels like he is doing a good job. It's amazing what a man will do for a woman who thinks of him as her hero.

This is true feminine power at work.

I don't know that you can teach her this but fortunately there is a world-wide movement to regain a true feminine spirit of trust, peace, encouragement, surrender, and humility. I can guarantee you that Mary, the Queen, lived in such a way that she let her son Jesus be her hero. I will pray for her. I am sure she is probably miserable and frustrated as a femi-nazi. She is sacrificing what she really wants, which is genuine relationship and dignity, for domination, manipulation, and coercion.

LucyLight · #17 Jun 7, '12, 12:06 pm

[quote=Lady Love;9381424]Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.QUOTE]

I think that women have been warned to not trust all men. Any responsible father will not just send his daughter out the door with some boy he doesn't know. On the other hand he probably would not be too worried about his son leaving with a girl. If a strange man comes to my door and I'm home alone I will not answer the door. This is just common sense and something I've learned from my parents not some "feminazi". Women probably need to be more cautious of men and seek out only moral guys who respect women and avoid the "bad boyz' so that they can trust them. Unfortunately, both genders tend to prioritze shallow characteristics when looking for a mate.

Lady Love · #18 Jun 7, '12, 2:14 pm

[quote=LucyLight;9381587]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Love

Unfortunately, our society has trained women NOT to trust. We have been told that men are out to dominate, control us and use us as objects. We are taught to FEAR men not rely on them to protect us. This is how the devil has driven a wedge between the sexes.QUOTE]

I think that women have been warned to not trust all men. Any responsible father will not just send his daughter out the door with some boy he doesn't know. On the other hand he probably would not be too worried about his son leaving with a girl. If a strange man comes to my door and I'm home alone I will not answer the door. This is just common sense and something I've learned from my parents not some "feminazi". Women probably need to be more cautious of men and seek out only moral guys who respect women and avoid the "bad boyz' so that they can trust them. Unfortunately, both genders tend to prioritze shallow characteristics when looking for a mate.

I was definitely using generalities and never meant to imply that women should indiscriminately trust all men. But a woman can TRUST that every man has it in him to be a hero and every woman possesses what she needs to draw it out of him.

LucyLight · #19 Jun 7, '12, 7:44 pm

[quote=Lady Love;9382086]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LucyLight

I was definitely using generalities and never meant to imply that women should indiscriminately trust all men. But a woman can TRUST that every man has it in him to be a hero and every woman possesses what she needs to draw it out of him.

Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don't trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

stiffkittenbabe · #20 Jun 8, '12, 8:29 am

We cannot automatically award our trust to every person who walks into our life! If you do that unconditionally instead of with discernment then you will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble. Not every man is Christ-like, and indeed there are many abusive men who even try using scripture to justify their appalling actions.
Common sense is what is needed here, rather than simply applying religious discrimination to one's dating life.

Gods_Peace · #21 Jun 13, '12, 7:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by stiffkittenbabe

We cannot automatically award our trust to every person who walks into our life! If you do that unconditionally instead of with discernment then you will get yourself into a whole heap of trouble. Not every man is Christ-like, and indeed there are many abusive men who even try using scripture to justify their appalling actions.
Common sense is what is needed here, rather than simply applying religious discrimination to one's dating life.

Someone needs a hug

Lady Love · #22 Jun 14, '12, 8:15 pm

[quote=LucyLight;9383256]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Love

Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don't trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

It's not about molding men or changing them. It's about understanding men and what makes them blossom. It's embracing the power that we have as women to influence and encourage the best in men.

"The most dangerous woman in the world is the one who does not know how powerful she is." -Justin Sterling

Crescentinus · #23 Jun 14, '12, 8:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LucyLight

Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don't trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

If a woman tries to change me, it should be for the better. She should also be very careful in doing it, because I tend to take serious offense when women try and turn me into a pet or a slave!

faithfully · #24 Jun 14, '12, 8:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouyate42

OK, I've found myself talking increasingly about my religious beliefs with someone I'm very good friends with. Now, it must be said that so far, this friend of mine has been mostly polite in both answering questions that I ask and also listening to my own answers and questions.

The problem I have in all of this is something which is coming up time and time again, and which seems to be an area of major conflict. The problem is that she seems to have this strongly 'feminazi' type attitude which has gone between the idea of female empowerment (not a bad thing) and has now gone to a point where now basically anything which stops her from doing as she pleases is abhorrent to her.

It's not the idea of God which is the problem, but the issue of following rules or commandments as part of serving God. And particularly where these rules mean that she would really have to radically change some aspect of her life or where she would have to moderate some lifestyle choice to any extent.

So, how do I discuss this issue with her? What can I say to her?

Wow, I just realized my FIL is a "feminazi". He's the same way. Anything that stops him from doing as he pleases is abhorrent to him. He's very much against anyone having input on ABC. Church on Sunday's. Rules in general.

I suppose you could use one of my answers to him with her. Not that it will change her mind anymore than it did his.

"Sure, I'd like to sit around and eat ice cream and bon bons all day, but for some reason my body just gets bigger and fatter and more unhealthy doing that."

Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you're talking to a confident out spoken woman.

How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.

Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't marry other men and have sex with them?

Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't sleep around if married or have premarital sex?

Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.

faithfully · #25 Jun 14, '12, 8:59 pm

[quote=LucyLight;9383256]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Love

Not to nit pick here but this is a common mistake a lot of women make. They think they can take a less than stellar guy and do x,y,z and change him. There are truly evil people in this world (men & women) and don't trust that you can change them. Women should seek out guys that are already God fearing respectful men and not assume that they can mold some guy into becoming this.

Yes, like ACTUAL Nazis.

I really dislike the term feminazi. I get what people mean. But when I hear the word nazi, I think of people who collected a group of others based on race and tortured them. Men, Women and children, and then killed them in horrific manners.

When I hear a man call a woman a feminazi, I hear a man comparing her to truly evil people. It's a gross comparison. I imagine to anyone that actually suffered the holocoust it is a little off putting to use such an exageration.

I can see how the argument is lost in that moment. When one exagerates to this extreme, then one seems to state they don't have any strong arguements. So they will now rely on name calling.

Most women are looking to be treated fairly. The moment they stand up in defense they are called such trashy names.Well, no wonder they choose to stand up and then steam roll. Why not? They've already been classified as the worst.

Kouyate42 · #26 Jun 15, '12, 3:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithfully

*snip*
Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you're talking to a confident out spoken woman.
How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.
Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't marry other men and have sex with them?
Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't sleep around if married or have premarital sex?
Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.

Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more 'weighty' and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I'm made to feel that I'm somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a 'traitor to my gender' in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.

LucyLight · #27 Jun 15, '12, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by faithfully

Wow, I just realized my FIL is a "feminazi". He's the same way. Anything that stops him from doing as he pleases is abhorrent to him. He's very much against anyone having input on ABC. Church on Sunday's. Rules in general.

I suppose you could use one of my answers to him with her. Not that it will change her mind anymore than it did his.

"Sure, I'd like to sit around and eat ice cream and bon bons all day, but for some reason my body just gets bigger and fatter and more unhealthy doing that."

Believe it or not, this is not a Woman issue. It just feels that way, because you're talking to a confident out spoken woman.

How would you deal with this question if she were a man? Why do you have to deal differently between men and women on the same question.

Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't marry other men and have sex with them?

Do you not know men that don't understand why they shouldn't sleep around if married or have premarital sex?

Does she not realize that our rules apply to human race. Not just to women? Maybe not.

Every once in a while someone posts something that is truly thought provoking. This is such a good point.

faithfully · #28 Jun 18, '12, 10:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouyate42

Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more 'weighty' and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I'm made to feel that I'm somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a 'traitor to my gender' in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.

I still don't see a difference between men and women here. She's basically telling you that your opinion doesn't count because it doesn't match hers. Which is the basic premise of why she could not follow certain religious guidelines. Her opinion doesn't match theirs so they are wrong. Everyone is wrong unless their opinions match her. Where is the equality and freedom of choice in that.

She wants your female freedom by controling your female opinions?

I'm a woman btw... I don't get it.

AngryAtheist8 · #29 Jun 27, '12, 8:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouyate42

This has always been my view on the whole issue.

To my mind, I am even more free because of the rules I am meant to follow. My hijab means I am free from harassment and free to concentrate on my mind as opposed to getting harassed by people over looks. Praying 5 times a day means I'm disciplined and also mindful of the consequences (good or bad) of my actions at all times and of God.

I find it ironic that many of the people who do as they please are often the most unhappy.

Yep!

For Muslims, Maryam (Mary) is the perfect example of devotion to God.

From what I recall, you praised the enforcement of the full body hijab on women (in countries like Saudi Arabia) within the context of an earlier thread about how Islam actually treats women when it has political power.

Personally, that makes your talk of liberation look a lot more dubious to me.

P.S. I found the thread:
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=668077

I forgot how long that thread got.

AngryAtheist8 · #30 Jun 27, '12, 8:50 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kouyate42

Problem I have is that in dealing with my friend, she seems to think that being female somehow makes her opinion more 'weighty' and more worthy of respect. She finds my opinions on things like female modesty or whatever doubly abhorrent, firstly because she simply disagrees with my opinion (which would be fine in itself), but also because somehow the idea that a woman such as myself can hold such opinions. I'm made to feel that I'm somehow both wrong in my opinion, but also a 'traitor to my gender' in her eyes.

This is the major difference in dealing with her, and dealing with a man who holds the same opinions.

Are you still a Muslim who supports things like mandatory hijabs for women?