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  #16  
Old Jun 8, '12, 12:56 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
=andremiguel;9384093]It is a deep question: Karl Rahner called them the "unknown christians", meaning, those are the people who follow their conscience so well that had they known Jesus Christ, they would follow Him, "till the end of the world" (as a friend of mine spoke seeing the Turin Shroud.)
Going from memory here but is C.R. still a "Catholic" of the RCC?

God Bless,
pat /PJM
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  #17  
Old Jun 8, '12, 11:30 pm
andremiguel andremiguel is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Going from memory here but is C.R. still a "Catholic" of the RCC?

God Bless,
pat /PJM


Karl Rahner was (I think he already passed away) a great German Jesuit Theologian.
Link, click to see:
Karl Rahner in wikipedia
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  #18  
Old Jun 15, '12, 2:01 am
Pinoycat Pinoycat is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

If you may allow, let me paste and share this to you to answer your question:

One Hundred Fifty Reasons I'm Catholic

And You Should Be Too!

by Dave Armstrong

1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.

2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.

3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.

4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).

5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).

6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.

7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).

8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.

9. Catholicism avoids ecclesiological anarchism - one cannot merely jump to another denomination when some disciplinary measure or censure is called for.

10. Catholicism formally (although, sadly, not always in practice) prevents the theological relativism which leads to the uncertainties within the Protestant system among laypeople.

11. Catholicism rejects the "State Church," which has led to governments dominating Christianity rather than vice-versa.

12. Protestant State Churches greatly influenced the rise of nationalism, which mitigated against universal equality and Christian universalism (i.e., Catholicism).

13. Unified Catholic Christendom (before the 16th century) had not been plagued by the tragic religious wars which in turn led to the "Enlightenment," in which men rejected the hypocrisy of inter-Christian warfare and decided to become indifferent to religion rather than letting it guide their lives.

14. Catholicism retains the elements of mystery, supernatural, and the sacred in Christianity, thus opposing itself to secularization, where the sphere of the religious in life becomes greatly limited.

15. Protestant individualism led to the privatization of Christianity, whereby it is little respected in societal and political life, leaving the "public square" barren of Christian influence.

16. The secular false dichotomy of "church vs. world" has led committed orthodox Christians, by and large, to withdraw from politics, leaving a void filled by pagans, cynics, unscrupulous, and power-hungry. Catholicism offers a framework in which to approach the state and civic responsibility.

17. Protestantism leans too much on mere traditions of men (every denomination stems from one Founder's vision. As soon as two or more of these contradict each other, error is necessarily present).

18. Protestant churches (esp. evangelicals), are far too often guilty of putting their pastors on too high of a pedestal. In effect, every pastor becomes a "pope," to varying degrees (some are "super-popes"). Because of this, evangelical congregations often experience a severe crisis and/or split up when a pastor leaves, thus proving that their philosophy is overly man-centered, rather than God-centered.

19. Protestantism, due to lack of real authority and dogmatic structure, is tragically prone to accommodation to the spirit of the age, and moral faddism.

20. Catholicism retains apostolic succession, necessary to know what is true Christian apostolic Tradition. It was the criterion of Christian truth used by the early Christians.

21. Many Protestants take a dim view towards Christian history in general, esp. the years from 313 (Constantine's conversion) to 1517 (Luther's arrival). This ignorance and hostility to Catholic Tradition leads to theological relativism, anti-Catholicism, and a constant, unnecessary process of "reinventing the wheel."

22. Protestantism from its inception was anti-Catholic, and remains so to this day (esp. evangelicalism). This is obviously wrong and unbiblical if Catholicism is indeed Christian (if it isn't, then - logically - neither is Protestantism, which inherited the bulk of its theology from Catholicism). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is not anti-Protestant.

23. The Catholic Church accepts the authority of the great Ecumenical Councils (see, e.g., Acts 15) which defined and developed Christian doctrine (much of which Protestantism also accepts).

24. Most Protestants do not have bishops, a Christian office which is biblical (1 Tim 3:1-2) and which has existed from the earliest Christian history and Tradition.

25. Protestantism has no way of settling doctrinal issues definitively. At best, the individual Protestant can only take a head count of how many Protestant scholars, commentators, etc. take such-and-such a view on Doctrine X, Y, or Z. There is no unified Protestant Tradition.



please read the continuation at One Hundred Fifty Reasons I'm Catholic
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  #19  
Old Jun 15, '12, 1:34 pm
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
=andremiguel;9387503]Karl Rahner was (I think he already passed away) a great German Jesuit Theologian.
Link, click to see:
Karl Rahner in wikipedia
Be that as it may

I do recall that he was a "progressive" "liberal" theologian who was a member of the CC.

IF I'm wrong please direct me to where I can certify it. I certainly DO NOT wnat to be just spreading gossip

God Bless,
Pat
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http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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  #20  
Old Jun 16, '12, 1:34 am
andremiguel andremiguel is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Be that as it may

I do recall that he was a "progressive" "liberal" theologian who was a member of the CC.

IF I'm wrong please direct me to where I can certify it. I certainly DO NOT wnat to be just spreading gossip

God Bless,
Pat

Labels like progrssive and liberal do more harm than good.
We have to define that in the first place.
He was a deep and outstanding theologian of the XX century. If you are an investigator, you are in the forefront of humanity as he was. Yet, he was a Jesuit and had the 4th vow of Obedience to the Pope.
I do not see him like a Pop Theologican but a profound and deep Thinker with some powerful insights on several matters.
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  #21  
Old Jun 16, '12, 5:41 am
PJM PJM is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
=andremiguel;9414205]Labels like progrssive and liberal do more harm than good.
We have to define that in the first place.
He was a deep and outstanding theologian of the XX century. If you are an investigator, you are in the forefront of humanity as he was. Yet, he was a Jesuit and had the 4th vow of Obedience to the Pope.
I do not see him like a Pop Theologican but a profound and deep Thinker with some powerful insights on several matters.
Putting labes aside [even though they Do seem to serve a purpose]

I'd ask you to look at:
http://www.americamagazine.org/conte...ticle_id=10722

www.shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/rahner.htm

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transfinalization
Rahner was a critic of substance theory and was concerned about the finality of liturgy. He proposed instead to rename transubstantiation into transfinalization. However, this theory was rejected as heretical by Pope Paul VI in the encyclical Mysterium Fidei.[citation

And yes Iím aware he was made a cardinal.

FROM: Fr. Hardon's Catholic Dictionary:
"TRANSFINALIZATION. The view of Christ's presence in the Eucharist that the purpose or finality of the bread and wine is changed by the words of consecration. They are said to serve a new function, as sacred elements that arouse the faith of the people in the mystery of Christ's redemptive love. Like transignification, this theory was condemned by Pope Paul VI in the encyclical Mysterium Fidei (1965) if transfinalization is taken to deny the substantial change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change +finis, end; purpose.)"


God Bless,
Par
__________________
Irish2: PJM


http://working4christtwo.wordpress.com


A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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  #22  
Old Jun 16, '12, 6:29 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by andremiguel View Post
Sometimes we see people saying that they are Catholic with practice (is this the terminology?), relapsed, going into, going out, cradle, converted, half-way, 25%, 75%, Catholic with doubts, desapointed (sic?)Catholic, going to the mass, not going to the mass.

I would like to know your definition of Catholic. Your, means your individual definition.

Now, a Hindu who does works of Charity is a Catholic? Let us remember the Samaritan (who was considered impure) who helped the man robbed and beaten on the was from Jericho to Jerusalem. He was considered Christian, follower of Jesus, more than the Jews, the priest and the other who did not help him.

A Catholic who goes or does not go to mass is or is not a Catholic?

Just asking for thoughts...Thanks.
A person who assents to Catholic doctrine because they've come to agree with it.
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  #23  
Old Jun 17, '12, 2:11 am
andremiguel andremiguel is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM View Post
Putting labes aside [even though they Do seem to serve a purpose]

I'd ask you to look at:
http://www.americamagazine.org/conte...ticle_id=10722

www.shc.edu/theolibrary/resources/rahner.htm

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Transfinalization
Rahner was a critic of substance theory and was concerned about the finality of liturgy. He proposed instead to rename transubstantiation into transfinalization. However, this theory was rejected as heretical by Pope Paul VI in the encyclical Mysterium Fidei.[citation

And yes Iím aware he was made a cardinal.

FROM: Fr. Hardon's Catholic Dictionary:
"TRANSFINALIZATION. The view of Christ's presence in the Eucharist that the purpose or finality of the bread and wine is changed by the words of consecration. They are said to serve a new function, as sacred elements that arouse the faith of the people in the mystery of Christ's redemptive love. Like transignification, this theory was condemned by Pope Paul VI in the encyclical Mysterium Fidei (1965) if transfinalization is taken to deny the substantial change of bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. (Etym. Latin trans-, so as to change +finis, end; purpose.)"


God Bless,
Par


Taken from
http://www.therealpresence.org/archi.../Faith_006.htm
"Quote Karl Rahner, ďthe more recent approaches suggest the following considerations, one has to remember that the words of institution indicate a change. But not give any guiding line for the interpretation of the actual process. As regarding transubstantiation it may be said, the substance, essence, meaning and purpose of the bread are identical but the meaning of a thing can be changed without changing the matter. The meaning of the bread has been changed through the consecration something which served profane use now becomes the dwelling place and the symbol of Christ who is present and gives Himself to His own."

I do not see nothing against the RCC doctrine. Now in the same site takes one conclusion that Rahner does not say here, in their quote!!!

Note that Rahner says that "becomes the dwelling place and the symbol of Christ". It is an image "dwelling" and you can discuss the image but dwelling is where Christ is.

Remember that one who makes theology may fall into errors. Only those who do not write about theology do not make mistakes. But I never saw Rahner go out of the Church or disobey. He was a faithful theologians what, at present times and at the times of the Council, is outstanding.
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  #24  
Old Jun 17, '12, 4:36 am
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animalis animalis is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

The Church teaches that the Pope is the visible source of unity throughout the Church. Catholic means universal. Universality requires unity. Therefore ascent to the Pope and his publications indicates Catholicism.

Furthermore, there is a term baptism by desire, and therewith the church teaches that a person can be catholic without being baptised.

Sorry that I do not have the citations to the authoritative sources. You can take my word for it. Or someone else may post the sources if they are familiar.
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  #25  
Old Jun 17, '12, 8:24 am
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animalis animalis is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by animalis View Post
The Church teaches that the Pope is the visible source of unity throughout the Church. Catholic means universal. Universality requires unity. Therefore ascent to the Pope and his publications indicates Catholicism.

Furthermore, there is a term baptism by desire, and therewith the church teaches that a person can be catholic without being baptised.

Sorry that I do not have the citations to the authoritative sources. You can take my word for it. Or someone else may post the sources if they are familiar.
Here are two citations from the Catechism:

The Church teaches that the Pope is the visible source of unity throughout the Church.

"The Pope...is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and the whole company of the faithful." (CCC 882)

the church teaches that a person can be catholic without being baptised.

"Catechumens are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity. With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own." (CCC 1249)
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  #26  
Old Jun 17, '12, 11:27 pm
andremiguel andremiguel is offline
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Default Re: What is a Catholic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by animalis View Post
The Church teaches that the Pope is the visible source of unity throughout the Church. Catholic means universal. Universality requires unity. Therefore ascent to the Pope and his publications indicates Catholicism.

Furthermore, there is a term baptism by desire, and therewith the church teaches that a person can be catholic without being baptised.

Sorry that I do not have the citations to the authoritative sources. You can take my word for it. Or someone else may post the sources if they are familiar.

For me that makes sense. What distinguishes a Catholic from others is the obedience to the Pope and many have gone astray because they did not want to obey. Protestant for instance.
Moreover your second point is very good.
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