Harvesting organs before the patient is dead?

Tamsulosin · #1 Jun 6, '12, 6:22 am

Dr Morrissey of Brown's University is proposing to take brain dead patients that are on life support from the machines, give them pain killers and extract the kidneys to give to other people.Then wait for their pulse to stop to declare them dead.
The slippery slope has started.It is called "harvesting from the still alive".
I wonder if the family of the dying person is notified.

triumphguy · #2 Jun 6, '12, 6:56 am

This is not inevitable. We do not have to go there. We can fight back and stop the downhill slide.

maltmom · #3 Jun 6, '12, 6:59 am

I'm confused here. If one is brain dead than there is no need for pain killers. It is my understanding that once being declared brain dead the person is already gone. Life support is used to mechanically keep the blood oxygenated thereby keeping the organs and tissues oxygenated. All organs and tissues used for transplant are harvested while life support is still on b/c there is only a window of opportunity to successfully transplant after the fresh oxygen supply is removed. Life support is then removed and the person is pronounced dead even though they were actually dead when their brain stopped functioning.

Tamsulosin · #4 Jun 6, '12, 7:08 am

Somebody has to pronounce you brain dead first.Is the patient completely brain dead or there are some waves still? There are greedy and dishonest people in this world. Also ,as you may know, patients may remain in coma for years and come back.
And I wish they did not use the word "harvest"

triumphguy · #5 Jun 6, '12, 7:12 am

Yeah "harvest" implies you are a farmer reaping something you have sown and tended.

Plunder, butcher, pillage, or steal would be better words.

rfournier103 · #6 Jun 6, '12, 7:23 am

Slippery slope indeed. Bad idea. Maybe it's just me, but sometimes people get somewhat unreasonable when lives are on the line.

In my humble opinion, harvesting of organs should NEVER be done if the donor is alive in ANY way, shape, or form (except liver or ONE kidney. Those can be donated when the donor is alive and donating voluntarily). It's just plain unethical. If the donor needs to be given pain meds, and then "allowed to die," I don't see how this is much different from what China does with it's prisoners. In those cases, I don't think they get pain meds.. they just get euthanized.

Ever seen the movie "The Island"? There's many ways organ donation can be twisted.

This is why I am no longer registered as an organ donor. Too many shady people out there who don't have my interests in mind.

Jerusha · #7 Jun 6, '12, 7:28 am

When there are abusive practices, people will be less likely to sign donor cards. For a long time, I did not, because of being treated like an inferior, because of unchangeable personal characteristics. This would make it more likely to for me to become a victim of organ harvesting.

If you fear this, don't sign. Of course, there are more likely to be abusive practices as the supply of legitimate organs dries up.

I think family decision to pull the plug would be more conservative if more were aware of this.

**Trishie** · #8 Jun 6, '12, 7:32 am

http://lifeguardianfoundation.org/pd...nbroch_web.pdf

An extract from this disturbing document.

"In actuality, it is the excruciating
vital organ removal prodecure which
causes True Death of the Donor."
...Prior to 1968 a person was declared dead only after their
breathing and heart stopped for a determinate period of time. The
current terminology "Brain Death" was unheard of. When surgeons
realized they had the capability of taking organs from one seemingly
“close to death” person and implanting them into another person to
keep the recipient alive longer, a "Pandora’s Box" was opened.
In the beginning, through trial and error, they discovered it was
not possible to perform this "miraculous" surgery with organs taken
from someone truly dead--even if the donor was without circulation
for merely a few minutes - because organ damage occurs within a
very brief time after circulation stops."

I myself have known two person who were declared brain dead, yet in time recovered.

PoliSciProf · #9 Jun 6, '12, 8:26 am

I have read an account that this "harvesting" while alive is occurring in China. This is not my area of study so I hope some other CAFer can confirm this.

Tamsulosin · #10 Jun 6, '12, 1:04 pm

And probably sick people that does not have a known family, sort of loners,no advocate, I think are the most vulnerable.
Hospitals should assign an advocate to each of these people when admitted .Just like the judicial system assigns a defense lawyer to people that cannot afford one, to look after their interest and protect them.

jay29 · #11 Jun 6, '12, 4:50 pm

Happens all the time. Patient in brain dead before harvesting begins. Heart and lungs are taken last on the interior organs. Then skin and corneas on the exterior. They have different teams of specialists for each of the organs. Even flown in from other states. It's a major endeavor.

You shouldn't be surprised at any of this. It's perfectly legal to destroy preborn babies for any reason in this society. Nothing should raise an eyebrow knowing this.

manualman · #12 Jun 8, '12, 4:00 pm

It's very important that we get the facts right here before starting a panic on such a crucial topic. Have we? I'm not convinced.

There is a large difference between someone who truly is dead, but whose circulation and respiration is maintained by a machine and someone with arguably irrecoverable brain damage that still is sustaining their own heartbeat and breathing.

IMO, if "brain dead" is interpreted to mean, "he died, but we turned on all these machines in quick enough time to keep oxygenated blood moving through his system and keep his organs alive" then I have no problem with organs being removed from such a person.

But if "brain dead" is evolving to mean 'persistant vegetative state' then we are right to be alarmed. but it's awfully hard to tell these days what the truth is underneath all the medical jargon!

CopticChristian · #13 Jun 9, '12, 8:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamsulosin

Dr Morrissey of Brown's University is proposing to take brain dead patients that are on life support from the machines, give them pain killers and extract the kidneys to give to other people.Then wait for their pulse to stop to declare them dead.
The slippery slope has started.It is called "harvesting from the still alive".
I wonder if the family of the dying person is notified.

Tam,

This is nothing new. I harvested hearts and Kidneys at the University of Arizona. At the time I did not give it much thought. I have several recollections. One of the saddest was a young girl, 3 or so, brain dead that was harvested. I recall the parents giving her a stuffed glow worm as she went into the operating room. Yes, I can recall the entire process...even the respirator stopping and her death.

Later when I had children I saw that same stuffed glow worm in the hands of one of my children and it brought back the memories.

Harvesting has been done with the brain dead for a long time. The question I suppose is if the brain is dead, is there any life..something to think about.

CopticChristian · #14 Jun 9, '12, 8:57 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by manualman

It's very important that we get the facts right here before starting a panic on such a crucial topic. Have we? I'm not convinced.

There is a large difference between someone who truly is dead, but whose circulation and respiration is maintained by a machine and someone with arguably irrecoverable brain damage that still is sustaining their own heartbeat and breathing.

IMO, if "brain dead" is interpreted to mean, "he died, but we turned on all these machines in quick enough time to keep oxygenated blood moving through his system and keep his organs alive" then I have no problem with organs being removed from such a person.

But if "brain dead" is evolving to mean 'persistant vegetative state' then we are right to be alarmed. but it's awfully hard to tell these days what the truth is underneath all the medical jargon!

M,

The trauma system catches lots of these individuals. The ABC of trauma is Airway, Breathing, Circulation. Airway is established in the field by paramedics. These people are intubated, breathing is assisted and Circulation is supported. They may arrive brain dead with an established airway, assisted breathing and supported circulation.

I recall a young man that took a gun to his mouth and shot himself over a girl. He was intubated in the field and brought to the hospital. The tragedy is that he shot himself so that he could not breathe on his own, so his life was saved, however he was doomed to a life on a ventillator. I believe he severed his cord at the C-2 level. The pneumonic is C3, 4 & 5, keep the diapragm alive. In other words he severed the phrenic nerve innervation to his diaphragm that regulated breathing. There was discussion about placing phrenic nerve stimulators but that never happened.

I recall his awakening and speaking to him telling him why he was there. When I told him that he had shot himself and that he was on a ventillator he made a grimace.....one you may be familiar with....like when you tell someone that they did something the night before...his mouth and face made the movements...like "I did"...he could not believe what he had done....

You may not know this but in the business Motorcycles are referred to as "Donor Cycles"