My first NFP class....

[Dan Daly]

Originally Posted by agapewolf

It doesn't seem like you've been to an NFP class. NFP classes are only meant to teach the mechanics...that's what its there for. It's not meant to make judgements or to teach the "whys" behind it, or how it should be determined whether to use it to avoid or achieve pregnancy. That goes along with marriage preparation and catechesis. NFP classes are biology.

Especially in the creighton method, one learns when there is fertility and when there isn't. Even though I'm single, I still learned when would be days of avoiding, and days of achieving. That is learning NFP. In order to learn this method, it is standardized teaching...very specific steps to learn at specific times, in order to be considered doing the method. IT is ONLY through this class and this very specific standardized instruction that one can learn Creighton, due to the strict quality control.
Creighton is the method used along with Napro technology for health issues. So, no, there isn't a way to learn it and "separate" from NFP, and my knowledge of NFP does not force me to have a contraceptive mentality.

Regarding your knowledge of this couple's experience, since you are hearing it 2nd hand, it is very likely that you don't have the whole story there. NFP can be used to achieve pregnancy, also this instructor could have been saying they recommend to simply CHART for the first year, not necessarily use NFP to avoid pregnancy.

I have been to several different NFP classes. As I said, classes vary a good bit depending on who is instructing, and your "method only" classes not the universal norm of NFP instruction. If the classes you've attended have not taught things contrary to Church teaching that is great. Sadly I have personally experienced classes that have and heard of similar experiences from many friends who I trust.

Your comments are confusing though. You say learning "method only" tells you "days of avoiding" and "days of achieving". Avoiding what? Achieving what?

If a person is not married, than chastity entails virginity. So every day is a day of avoiding sex, and it's impossible to achieve conception no matter how fertile you are on a particular day.

Does bad instruction force anyone into a contraception mentality? No it doesn't. We all have free will, but it can and does influence people, sometimes very strongly.

Pax Christi

[Elisabeth51]

Originally Posted by agapewolf

Absolutely incorrect. I'm single and have been charting for 10 years for my health, and thank goodness because I found problems I never would have found out a couple of problems I had that needed fixing. I believe every woman should chart her cycle for health. Including the nun I saw in my napro doc's office with a chart.

Thank you. In my case it is health, I know I have something strange going on, it seems to be hormonal and so it was recommended to take the class to learn the method so if there is a problem it can be seen.

[agapewolf]

Originally Posted by Dan Daly

I have been to several different NFP classes. As I said, classes vary a good bit depending on who is instructing, and your "method only" classes not the universal norm of NFP instruction. If the classes you've attended have not taught things contrary to Church teaching that is great. Sadly I have personally experienced classes that have and heard of similar experiences from many friends who I trust.

Your comments are confusing though. You say learning "method only" tells you "days of avoiding" and "days of achieving". Avoiding what? Achieving what?

If a person is not married, than chastity entails virginity. So every day is a day of avoiding sex, and it's impossible to achieve conception no matter how fertile you are on a particular day.

Does bad instruction force anyone into a contraception mentality? No it doesn't. We all have free will, but it can and does influence people, sometimes very strongly.

Pax Christi

Achieving or avoiding pregnancy... You really didn't get that? Really? Are you being purposely obtuse? I'm single and I still learn what the proper days for that are. It's not difficult.

Creighton method does not vary. It is standardized instruction.

Honestly I think you are just backtracking after bring proven wrong here.

Nfp classes are appropriate for every woman to learn. In fact many napro docs suggest all women to learn it.

[Luna Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by agapewolf

Nfp classes are appropriate for every woman to learn. In fact many napro docs suggest all women to learn it.

Absolutely. All women should learn to chart, and the younger the better. There's no reason in the world any women shouldn't have all the information about her body she can get her hands on.

By charting and self-examining women can uncover issues before they impact their fertility or before they become a bigger health problems. I know two women, who - while still teenagers - used NFP to uncover hormonal problems that could have impacted their fertility if left untreated.

But even if a woman is perfectly healthy, using NFP is incredibly empowering. And I think that's what some folks take issue with when you get right down to it.

Luna

[Dan Daly]

Originally Posted by agapewolf

Achieving or avoiding pregnancy... You really didn't get that? Really? Are you being purposely obtuse? I'm single and I still learn what the proper days for that are. It's not difficult.

Creighton method does not vary. It is standardized instruction.

Honestly I think you are just backtracking after bring proven wrong here.

Nfp classes are appropriate for every woman to learn. In fact many napro docs suggest all women to learn it.

I think you missed my point. On one hand you are saying that charting can yield useful information that can aid a single woman in dealing with health issues. I agree.

On the other hand, you are saying that it's important for a single woman to learn how increase or decrease the chances of becoming pregnant through charting. I disagree. If a single woman is being chaste she has 0% chance of becoming a mother no matter what day of the month it is. Just as a chaste single man has a 0% chance of becoming father.

Pax

[Dan Daly]

Originally Posted by Luna Lovecraft

Absolutely. All women should learn to chart, and the younger the better. There's no reason in the world any women shouldn't have all the information about her body she can get her hands on.

By charting and self-examining women can uncover issues before they impact their fertility or before they become a bigger health problems. I know two women, who - while still teenagers - used NFP to uncover hormonal problems that could have impacted their fertility if left untreated.

But even if a woman is perfectly healthy, using NFP is incredibly empowering. And I think that's what some folks take issue with when you get right down to it.

Luna

How does NFP empower a single woman who is not using charting for health reasons?

I strongly disagree on the "younger the better" comment. Sex-ed whether it's called NFP or something else is something should be discussed by parents with their children, at the age the parents, using their reason in accordance with the Faith, deem appropriate for that particular child. The idea that knowing more is always better and knowing it sooner is better than knowing it later is a very dangerous one. Sex-ed quite often robs children of their innocence and modesty.

Pax Christi

[Pink_Lemonade]

Originally Posted by Dan Daly

I think you missed my point. On one hand you are saying that charting can yield useful information that can aid a single woman in dealing with health issues. I agree.

On the other hand, you are saying that it's important for a single woman to learn how increase or decrease the chances of becoming pregnant through charting. I disagree. If a single woman is being chaste she has 0% chance of becoming a mother no matter what day of the month it is. Just as a chaste single man has a 0% chance of becoming father.

Pax

It may not be important in terms of immediate practical use if a woman isn't married, but I don't really understand why anyone would see medical knowledge as wrong. You can't really separate the two- charting and "chance of becoming pregnant". They're the same thing- fertility. The changes observed over the menstrual cycle are a result of fertility, so knowing at which point in the month a woman is fertile is really the same thing as knowing which signs point it out- regardless of whether it's used in the context of a marriage or not.

[agapewolf]

Originally Posted by Dan Daly

How does NFP empower a single woman who is not using charting for health reasons?

I strongly disagree on the "younger the better" comment. Sex-ed whether it's called NFP or something else is something should be discussed by parents with their children, at the age the parents, using their reason in accordance with the Faith, deem appropriate for that particular child. The idea that knowing more is always better and knowing it sooner is better than knowing it later is a very dangerous one. Sex-ed quite often robs children of their innocence and modesty.

Pax Christi

No, it doesn't. Charting NFP is basic health and hygiene. Just like it's taught to children to go to the bathroom, girls should be taught "wipe before and after".

You are really stretching this to make it more about "causes" you are taking up rather than what the basic idea is.

After I had some health issues figured out and treated, I had normal charts. NFP was still VERY empowering to me to know about my health-- its basic stuff. It made me in awe of God's design.

[Luna Lovecraft]

Originally Posted by Dan Daly

How does NFP empower a single woman who is not using charting for health reasons?

I strongly disagree on the "younger the better" comment. Sex-ed whether it's called NFP or something else is something should be discussed by parents with their children, at the age the parents, using their reason in accordance with the Faith, deem appropriate for that particular child. The idea that knowing more is always better and knowing it sooner is better than knowing it later is a very dangerous one. Sex-ed quite often robs children of their innocence and modesty.

Pax Christi

The ideas presented here are just so beyond my frame of reference - as a woman and as a parent of two daughters who will be reaching menarche soon - that there's not enough common ground for us to continue this conversation.

Luna

[Dan Daly]

I was about to say something similar. I think we do have some fundamental disagreements that are unlikely to be reconciled through an internet forum.

The idea that sexuality can be discussed in a "morality neutral" manner is not something I think can be possibly true. If morality is excluded, there is indeed a moral lesson imparted, namely that sexuality has nothing to do with morality.

Pax Christi

[catholicanne]

Trust in God. He has a perfect plan for you. Someone will come along and will be worth the wait.