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  #46  
Old Jun 10, '12, 8:00 pm
submariner2 submariner2 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Of the presbytery. 2 Tim 1:6 mentions only the apostle's laying on of hands. But there his aim is to remind Timothy of the part he took in imparting to Timothy the gift. Here he mentions the fact, consistent with the other, that the neighbouring presbyters joined in the ordination or consecration, he taking the foremost part. Paul, though having the general oversight of the elders everywhere, was an elder himself (1 Peter 5:1; 2 John 1). The Jewish council was composed of the elders (the presbytery, Luke 22:66; Acts 22:5) and a presiding Rabbi; so the Christian church was composed of elders and a president (Acts 15:19,23). The apostles were presidents in general. As the president of the synagogue was of the same order as his presbyters, so the bishop was of the same as his presbyters. At the ordination of the president there were always three presbyters present to lay on hands; so the early Church canons required three bishops to be present at the consecration of a bishop. As the president of the synagogue, so the bishop of the church alone could ordain, acting as the representative, in the name of the presbytery (Vitringa). So, in the Anglican church, the bishop ordains, the presbyters present joining with him in laying on hands.
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft)
guano,

There is no indication in the NT that the apostles ordained anyone. Laying on of hands was not ordination. Brown makes that clear

When he is speaking of the early church canons he is speaking of 3rd century or after. .

Rob
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  #47  
Old Jun 10, '12, 9:10 pm
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guanophore guanophore is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
What I am against is manufactured history. I stick with the top historians on subjects of history.
To date, none of your posts demonstrate that you have actually read any historical documents. The NT, certainly you read, but do so with your "there is no evidence" mentality, so you cannot see what is plainly before you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
Your presumption rejected by experts.
Your modern "experts" cannot make history disappear, Rob. Your, and their rejection of history does not make it go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
None of them were ever ordained. Laying on of hands is not an ordination. There were no chistian clergy type priests in the NT.
Not all incidents of the laying on of hands are ordination, certainly. There is the sacrament of healing and confirmation that also include the imposition of hands.

What is a "christian clergy type priest"?

How is this concept of your different than the priests of the NT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
My church also has sacred traditions of scripture and the presence of Christ in our lives.
Yes. In spite of being separated from the Apostolic Succession, much of the Apostolic faith has been preserved among our separated brethren.

I was very comfortable as a Methodist, until I began to read historical theology.
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



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  #48  
Old Jun 11, '12, 12:14 pm
JaKael02 JaKael02 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
"1. Antioch church sends Barnabas and Saul; Mission to Cyprus and SE Asia monor (Acts 13;1-14:28)

In this context of prayer and fasting, hands are laid on Barnabas and Saul. We should not
anachronistically speak of this as an ordination; it is a commissioning by the church of Antioc
for a mission that is often counted as the first Pauline journey and dated to AD 46-49."
Raymond Brown, Introduction to the New Testament, P 303, Imprimatur.

I would disagree that laying on of hands was used for appointing presbyters. It was possible sometimes but we do not have any evidence for that. Of course some presbyters were appointed, or recruited might be a better word to lead or assist in leading of a church body. Some may have appointed themself as did Paul appoint himself to be an apostle. There is no evidence there was any process at all except simply convincing someone to take on a responsiblity to use their house for gatherings.

Rob
Rob,

The quote you provides stated "commissioning". I'm being persuaded towards "commissioning" because of the evidence you provided used that rational.

Given, the commissioning statement, you have extrapolated some meaning. That some appointed themselves or were recruited. You may or may not be right. I'm not to decide.

To add another though. I've always heard that in the beginning, Church congregations picked the Presbyter and subsequently brough the presbyter to the Church for the laying on of hands.

If you ever have time for audio, I have some great audio resources from a top American Church historian. Madden is the historians name.

Your fortitude in this discussion is admirable. I love reading the discussion and your posts. Glad to have you in this forum.

Take care,

James
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  #49  
Old Jun 11, '12, 12:20 pm
JaKael02 JaKael02 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by 57Bill View Post
Sorry it this has already been mentioned ( I tend to skim )

.......Galatians 1-2 and in Acts 22.

Galatians is considered the first and oldest of surviving scripture. Paul is most explicit at the start of this letter than other letters (at least in my NIV)

Paul, an apostle —sent not from men nor by a man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead — 2 and all the brothers and sisters with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
I'm not an expert, so I may be misinformed.

Paul, an apostle, converted by Jesus Christ and sent by Jesus Christ on mission, but did not go rogue. He was subsequently commissioned in Acts 13 by the Church?

I may be mistaken. If so, Please let me know. Thank you!
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  #50  
Old Jun 11, '12, 2:19 pm
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guanophore guanophore is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by JaKael02 View Post
I'm not an expert, so I may be misinformed.

Paul, an apostle, converted by Jesus Christ and sent by Jesus Christ on mission, but did not go rogue. He was subsequently commissioned in Acts 13 by the Church?

I may be mistaken. If so, Please let me know. Thank you!
Paul immediately submitted himself to the Church and the sacramental life. Though he was taught much directly by Christ, and ordained by Christ personally as were all the Apostles, Paul also learned the Sacred Traditions through the Church.

Acts 9:17-19
7 So Anani'as departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came, has sent me that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized, 19 and took food and was strengthened.

Many Protestants I have met on CAF seem to believe that Paul did not have regard for the Church, or the other authorities appointed by Christ, but Paul's writings and actions say the opposite.
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



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  #51  
Old Jun 11, '12, 3:11 pm
57Bill 57Bill is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
Many Protestants I have met on CAF seem to believe that Paul did not have regard for the Church, or the other authorities appointed by Christ, but Paul's writings and actions say the opposite.
Yes (to Paul's writings and actions say the opposite)

I believe he was called for a very specific purpose as Peter, by God, each for a specific purpose the other could not do.

The Risen Christ and Peter with the keys on His right, and Paul on His left with a sword.

Last edited by 57Bill; Jun 11, '12 at 3:13 pm. Reason: addition
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  #52  
Old Jun 11, '12, 7:48 pm
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by 57Bill View Post
Yes (to Paul's writings and actions say the opposite)

I believe he was called for a very specific purpose as Peter, by God, each for a specific purpose the other could not do.

The Risen Christ and Peter with the keys on His right, and Paul on His left with a sword.
I often wonder if the two of them had much contact in Rome prior to their marytrdom there. I know that Paul might have been imprisoned as a Roman Citizen, but Peter as..I don't know what, one of the unwashed masses. Did they ever pray together when they were in prison awaiting their fate? Did they teach together? did they make amends for their differences?
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



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  #53  
Old Jun 12, '12, 8:12 am
JaKael02 JaKael02 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
I often wonder if the two of them had much contact in Rome prior to their marytrdom there. I know that Paul might have been imprisoned as a Roman Citizen, but Peter as..I don't know what, one of the unwashed masses. Did they ever pray together when they were in prison awaiting their fate? Did they teach together? did they make amends for their differences?
Medjugorje visionaries have stated before that they have seen St. Peter at the Gates of Heaven with keys in his hand.

I know this is not official Church teaching, but interesting.


Vicka:

In describing Heaven in an interview with Fr. Livio for Radio Maria, Vicka explained that when they arrived at Heaven, there was a great big wooden door. She said that the door was closed, but when they arrived Our Lady opened it and they entered into Heaven. She said St. Peter was standing at the right of the door. Vicka said, “I immediately understood that it was him. With a key, rather small, with the beard, a little sturdy, with hair.”1

Fr. Bubalo asked Vicka to describe Heaven. She responded:


“…it can’t be described. That is something beyond description. It is filled with some sort of beautiful light…people…flowers…angels…All is filled with some indescribable joy. Your heart stands still when you look at it.”2

http://www.medjugorje.com/medjugorje...of-heaven.html
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  #54  
Old Jun 12, '12, 10:54 am
submariner2 submariner2 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

guanophore;9394181]To date, none of your posts demonstrate that you have actually read any historical documents. The NT, certainly you read, but do so with your "there is no evidence" mentality, so you cannot see what is plainly before you.

guano,

I have read many of them.

Quote:
Your modern "experts" cannot make history disappear, Rob. Your, and their rejection of history does not make it go away.
You are saying Fr. Raymond E. Brown rejects history? Have you ever read any of his books? He is considered an expert in the Bible and early christian history. Most readers of history would consider you the one out of step.


Quote:
Not all incidents of the laying on of hands are ordination, certainly. There is the sacrament of healing and confirmation that also include the imposition of hands.
I am not saying that some christian rites do not use laying on of hands. My own church does for ordination also. I am just saying that the laying on of hands in the NT is not the same thing as ordination developed in the 3rd century.

Quote:
What is a "christian clergy type priest"?
There are a number of type priests described in the NT - 1. Jewish Levitical priests 2. Priesthood of all believers 3. Christ our high priest. But no other priests. No clergy.

Quote:
I was very comfortable as a Methodist, until I began to read historical theology.
Good for you. I hope you are happy.

Rob
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  #55  
Old Jun 12, '12, 11:24 am
JaKael02 JaKael02 is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
James,

Here is the definition by Brown. I just added blessing as my take on the general meaning. It was used for different purposes.

"1. Antioch church sends Barnabas and Saul; Mission to Cyprus and SE Asia monor (Acts 13;1-14:28)

In this context of prayer and fasting, hands are laid on Barnabas and Saul. We should not
anachronistically speak of this as an ordination; it is a commissioning by the church of Antioc
for a mission that is often counted as the first Pauline journey and dated to AD 46-49."
Raymond Brown, Introduction to the New Testament, P 303, Imprimatur.
Yes, laying on of hands in the OT was sometimes used for Blessings.
For example, Isaac blessed his son Jacob by laying on of hands (Genesis 27:27).

However,
laying on of hands was used for "ordination" in the OT.

For example:
Moses ordained Joshua through semikhah - i.e. by the laying on of hands: Num 27:15-23, Deut 34:9. The Bible adds that Joshua was thereby "filled with the spirit of wisdom". Moses also ordained the 70 elders (Num 11:16-25). The elders later ordained their successors in this way. Their successors in turn ordained others. This chain of hands-on semikhah continued through the time of the Second Temple, to an undetermined time.

The Sanhedrain obtained their authority via "laying on of hands".

Quote:
I would disagree that laying on of hands was used for appointing presbyters. It was possible sometimes but we do not have any evidence for that. Of course some presbyters were appointed, or recruited might be a better word to lead or assist in leading of a church body.
Do you agree that the early Christians used the same customs and traditions of the Jews (given they were Jewish Christians)? If so, then it's likely to assume that the laying on of hands that was done from Moses to the Sanhedrin was also done from the Apostles onward.

Quote:
Some may have appointed themself as did Paul appoint himself to be an apostle. There is no evidence there was any process at all except simply convincing someone to take on a responsiblity to use their house for gatherings.

Rob
Paul did not appoint himself. Where is that in Acts? He has the "laying on of hands" when he arrived in Damascus.

The evidence lays with Jewish tradition of the Sanhedrin.

Thoughts? Thank you. Kindly - James
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  #56  
Old Jun 12, '12, 12:45 pm
57Bill 57Bill is offline
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by guanophore View Post
did they make amends for their differences?
I can't recall anything specific other than circumcision. A good example of "binding and loosing" re Jewish laws as given to Peter by Jesus as to loosing this for the Gentiles.

Paul was teaching mostly to different "camp" than Peter so one would expect differences of approach. Gentiles wouldn't have much of clue if they only had teachings about Christ that flowed from Judaism. (IMO)

Good question that I haven't given much thought.
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  #57  
Old Jun 12, '12, 9:28 pm
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

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Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
guano,

I have read many of them.
You seem to have read the Didache, at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
You are saying Fr. Raymond E. Brown rejects history? Have you ever read any of his books? He is considered an expert in the Bible and early christian history. Most readers of history would consider you the one out of step.
No, Fr. Brown is Catholic, so he understands history in the light of what has been committed to the Church by the Apostles. You reject Sacred Tradition, so you have a different conclusion than he.

Yes, I love Fr. Brown's books. Does that make me "out of step"? I used to read the Early church fathers with an anti-Catholic attitude also. It is easier to block out what is there if you make up your mind in advance that it must mean something other than what it says.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
I am not saying that some christian rites do not use laying on of hands. My own church does for ordination also. I am just saying that the laying on of hands in the NT is not the same thing as ordination developed in the 3rd century.
That is where you and Fr. Brown part ways. For him, the fact the procedures were regularized in the 3rd century does not equate to their not being present prior to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
There are a number of type priests described in the NT - 1. Jewish Levitical priests 2. Priesthood of all believers 3. Christ our high priest. But no other priests. No clergy.
There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by submariner2 View Post
Good for you. I hope you are happy. Rob
It made me very unhappy at first. It took a lot of study and prayer to reconcile myself to the fact that my comfortable ecclesial communion in my country United Methodist littte parish was inconsistent with the historical record.

I was not after "happy", though, but the Truth, as you claim to be. So it was incumbent upon me to read with an open mind, and allow the HS to lead me.
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"The tradition of the Apostles has been made manifest throughout the world, and can be found in every Church by those who wish to know the truth." -- Irenaeus, writing about A.D. 189, on how the unity of the Church was based on the Apostolic Tradition everywhere handed down (paradosis).



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  #58  
Old Jun 17, '12, 12:41 am
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

Apostolic Succession is obvious prior to the 3rd century. Anyone familiar with the writings of St. Clement in the first century and Tertullian or Irenaeus in the 2nd would know this.

" Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith.""

- Letter to the Corinthians (Clement), AD 80
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  #59  
Old Jun 17, '12, 1:03 am
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Default Re: Paul lays hands on Timothy

...Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry."

- Letter to the Corinthians (Clement), AD 80
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