Snake-handling and Sola Scriptura

[vz71]

The sad thing in this is that when it is alll done, the people in this church are not going to learn anything.

They will simply believe that the person that died was a sinner, and died for it.

[Dhugz]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

http://news.yahoo.com/serpent-handli...opstories.html

The perils of Sola Scriptura and private interpretation of Scripture.

Maybe a pastor is mentally ill.

[TheRealJuliane]

Originally Posted by Dhugz

Maybe a pastor is mentally ill.

WAS mentally ill. He's now dead.

[Dhugz]

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

WAS mentally ill. He's now dead.

I am sorry, yes.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

Sigh...That's not what sola scriptura is

Re your post #103 --

There are several definitions (interpretations) of Sola Scriptura. Do Protestants agree on anything?

I was taught as a Protestant that the Bible (of 66 books) is the sole rule for faith and morals That's the one I read in the Westminster Confession. I was also taught the accompanying doctrine -- private interpretation -- i.e., that every individual who reads Scripture with a sincere heart will be guided to the truth by the Holy Spirit.

In his latest book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura, former Protestant Dave Armstrong writes: "For Protestants, Scripture alone is the source and rule of the Christian faith. It is the only infallible authority, sufficient in and of itself for a full exposition of Christianity and for the attainment of salvation. This is what sola scriptura means."

If he's not, I am.

Snake-handling sects cite Mark 16:17-20 for their practice. I'd say that's their biblical justification (as they interpret it). Please see this National Geographic article.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ehandlers.html

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

Re your post #103 --

There are several definitions (interpretations) of Sola Scriptura. Do Protestants agree on anything?

No, historically, there's only one definition. Yes, we do agree on many things, including the fact that, when given the choice to be honest or to misrepresent what we believe, Catholics will make the choice to misrepresent what we believe every time (and then turn around and whine about how unfair it is that we claim Catholic worship Mary)

I was taught as a Protestant that the Bible (of 66 books) is the sole rule for faith and morals That's the one I read in the Westminster Confession.

So, let me get this straight: you're apealling to the WC as evidence that the Bible is the sole rule of faith? Do you really not see the hypocrisy in that?

OK, one more time: sola scriptura does not teach that scripture is our only source. If it was, then we wouldn't have creeds, confessions, catechisms, we wouldn't have pastors and elders, and we would reject the authority of the Church. Sola scriptura simply means that of all of the sources we use, scripture is the hightest authority and all other sources must be subject to it.

In his latest book, 100 Biblical Arguments Against Sola Scriptura, former Protestant Dave Armstrong writes: "For Protestants, Scripture alone is the source and rule of the Christian faith. It is the only infallible authority, sufficient in and of itself for a full exposition of Christianity and for the attainment of salvation. This is what sola scriptura means."

Just goes to show you that you don't need to know what you're talking about to write a book. Next time you see ol' Dave, ask him how he explains the various creeds, confessions, and catechisms.

Snake-handling sects cite Mark 16:17-20 for their practice. I'd say that's their biblical justification

Except that the passage never tells them to purposely pick up poisonous snakes. It merely says that God will protect them.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

No, historically, there's only one definition. Yes, we do agree on many things, including the fact that, when given the choice to be honest or to misrepresent what we believe, Catholics will make the choice to misrepresent what we believe every time (and then turn around and whine about how unfair it is that we claim Catholic worship Mary)



So, let me get this straight: you're apealling to the WC as evidence that the Bible is the sole rule of faith? Do you really not see the hypocrisy in that?

OK, one more time: sola scriptura does not teach that scripture is our only source. If it was, then we wouldn't have creeds, confessions, catechisms, we wouldn't have pastors and elders, and we would reject the authority of the Church. Sola scriptura simply means that of all of the sources we use, scripture is the hightest authority and all other sources must be subject to it.



Just goes to show you that you don't need to know what you're talking about to write a book. Next time you see ol' Dave, ask him how he explains the various creeds, confessions, and catechisms.

Except that the passage never tells them to purposely pick up poisonous snakes. It merely says that God will protect them.

That's your interpretation of Mark 16:17-18 -- snake-handlers have another. Mark plainly says "And these signs will accompany those who believe . . . they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them . . . " (RSV).

Your definition of SS assumes that all Protestants accept "creeds, confessions, and catechisms." They don't. Dave Armstrong got it right.

Luther and Calvin disagreed on the definition of SS, and it goes downhill from there.

I merely pointed out that the Westminster Confession (a Protestant document) contains a common definition of SS. I'm not, as you wrote, "appealing to the WC as evidence that the Bible is the sole rule of faith." Sola Scriptura is false -- by any definition, in any iteration.

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

That's your interpretation of Mark 16:17-18

Boy, there's a shock. Imagine, a Catholic just dismissing something by saying "Well, that's just your interpretation".

Fine, let's say that it's just my interpretation. Now that you've claimed that it's just my interpretation, the ball is in your court to demonstrate why you believe my interpretation is wrong.

The historic definition of SS assumes that all Protestants accept "creeds, confessions, and catechisms." They don't.

Really? Which ones don't?

I merely pointed out that the Westminster Confession (a Protestant document) contains a common definition of SS. I'm not, as you wrote, "appealing to the WC as evidence that the Bible is the sole rule of faith."

Actually, that's exactly what you did.

Sola Scriptura is false -- by any definition, in any iteration.

So you say. My Bible says different:

2nd Kings 22:10-13 - "And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not harkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."

2nd Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness; that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."

Matthew 4:3-4 - "And when the tempter came to Him, he said, if Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Matthew 4:5-11 - Then the Devil taketh Him up into the Holy City, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the Temple, and saith unto Him, if Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down; for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee, and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is Written Again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the Devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."

Matthew 21:42 - "Jesus said unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our Eyes!"

Revelation 22:18-19 -"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Proverbs 30:5-6 - "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a Liar!"

Matthew 12:3-5 -"but He said unto them, have ye not read what David did when he was an hungered, and they that were with Him?"

Matthew 19:4-5 "And He answered and said unto them, have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this reason shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."

Matthew 22:31-32 - "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living."

Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?"

Matthew 22:29 -"..Ye do ERR, not knowing THE SCRIPTURES, nor the Power of God!"

Matthew 26:24 -"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".

John 5:39 - "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Isa 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

[Chuck Finley]

For that matter, so do our Early Church Fathers:


So do our Early Church Fathers:

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (+ca.195) - "We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."
(Against Heresies, 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386) - "For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395)- "...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings." (On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)


St. Gregory of Nyssa -

"Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." (On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430)- "Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books." (On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

St. Augustine of Hippo - "What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.” (On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)

St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407) - "Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things... "(Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)

St. John Chrysostom - "Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast."(Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)

St. John Chrysostom - "They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly. "(Homily 13 on Genesis.)

St. John Chrysostom - "There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule." (Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])

St. Basil the Great (c.329-379) - "Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth. "(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)

St. Basil the Great - "What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture is sin." (The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)

St. Basil the Great - "We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture."
(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)

St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749) - "It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments."
(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)

[Jim Dandy]

Chuck Finley wrote:

Fine, let's say that it's just my interpretation. Now that you've claimed that it's just my interpretation, the ball is in your court to demonstrate why you believe my interpretation is wrong.

It's the snake-handlers' interpretation that is being considered in this thread. We need to stick a little closer to the subject of the thread or the moderators will remind us. There are plenty of threads where sola scriptura is argued. Or feel free to start a new one.

[Eric Hilbert]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

It's the snake-handlers interpretation that is being considered in this thread. We need to stick to the subject of the thread or the moderators will remind us. There are plenty of threads where sola scriptura is argued. Or feel free to start a new one.

No need.
Retitled the thread

[Jim Dandy]

Thank you, Eric H., for changing the subject of the thread.

Chuck Finley wrote:

No, historically, there's only one definition. Yes, we do agree on many things, including the fact that, when given the choice to be honest or to misrepresent what we believe, Catholics will make the choice to misrepresent what we believe every time (and then turn around and whine about how unfair it is that we claim Catholic worship Mary)

Luther established the first definition of Sola Scriptura (summarized: Scripture is the highest authority). Calvin's was second: (summarized: Scripture is the only authority). Aren’t both Luther‘s and Calvin‘s teachings “historical”?

There are literally thousands of Protestant denominations, all of them with at least one doctrine or practice at variance with other denominations. Therefore, it’s impossible for Catholics to make a statement about Protestant belief that fits every Protestant.

Protestants claim that Catholics worship Mary due to ignorance of the Truth.

Please, Mr. Finley, there’s no need for hostility and insults. Thank you.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

Boy, there's a shock. Imagine, a Catholic just dismissing something by saying "Well, that's just your interpretation".

Fine, let's say that it's just my interpretation. Now that you've claimed that it's just my interpretation, the ball is in your court to demonstrate why you believe my interpretation is wrong.

Please don't attribute words to me that I didn't write. I didn't "claim that it's just your interpretation." You are entitled to hold any interpretation you wish. I’m saying that your interpretation is not the interpretation of the snake-handlers, as illustrated by the objective, independent, non-sectarian National Geographic article.

[quoteReally? Which ones don't?[/quote]

The Disciples of Christ motto is "no creed but Christ." The hundreds of denominations of Baptists. There are others, but these are sufficient to prove my point that not all Protestants accept creeds, confessions, catechisms, etc.

So you say. My Bible says different:

2nd Kings 22:10-13 - "And Shaphan the scribe shewed the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath delivered me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the book of the law, that he rent his clothes. And the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, and Ahikam the son of Shaphan, and Achbor the son of Michaiah, and Shaphan the scribe, and Asahiah a servant of the king's, saying, Go ye, enquire of the LORD for me, and for the people, and for all Judah, concerning the words of this book that is found: for great is the wrath of the LORD that is kindled against us, because our fathers have not harkened unto the words of this book, to do according unto all that which is written concerning us."

2nd Timothy 3:16-17 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness; that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."

Matthew 4:3-4 - "And when the tempter came to Him, he said, if Thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But He answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."

Matthew 4:5-11 - Then the Devil taketh Him up into the Holy City, and setteth Him on a pinnacle of the Temple, and saith unto Him, if Thou be the Son of God, cast Thyself down; for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning Thee, and in their hands they shall bear Thee up, lest at any time Thou dash Thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is Written Again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

Matthew 4:8 - "Again, the Devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and saith unto Him, all these things will I give Thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan; for it is written, thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."

Matthew 21:42 - "Jesus said unto them, did ye never read in the scriptures, the Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner; this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our Eyes!"

Revelation 22:18-19 -"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Proverbs 30:5-6 - "Every word of God is pure, He is a shield unto them that put their trust in Him. add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a Liar!"

Matthew 12:3-5 -"but He said unto them, have ye not read what David did when he was an hungered, and they that were with Him?"

Matthew 19:4-5 "And He answered and said unto them, have ye not read that He which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, for this reason shall a man leave father and mother and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be one flesh."

Matthew 22:31-32 - "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God saying, I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the Living."

Luke 10:26 - "He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?"

Matthew 22:29 -"..Ye do ERR, not knowing THE SCRIPTURES, nor the Power of God!"

Matthew 26:24 -"The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born".

John 5:39 - "Search the Scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me."

Isa 8:20 - To the law and to the testimony! if they speak not according to this word, surely there is no morning for them.

Thanks for trying, but there is no scripture that says the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice -- or is the only authority -- or whatever definition of Sola Scriptura you wish to use. Therefore, SS is an unbiblical, self-defeating doctrine.

At the very end of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, the Catholic Church selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. At the same time, in the very same Councils, she canonized 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named tá Biblia -- the Book -- the Bible. The Bible is a Catholic book. Protestants can't even define "Bible" without using the list of contents formulated by the Catholic Church, because the list of "inspired" writings is not contained in the Bible.

[Jim Dandy]

Originally Posted by Chuck Finley

For that matter, so do our Early Church Fathers:


So do our Early Church Fathers:

St. Irenaeus of Lyons (+ca.195) - "We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith."
(Against Heresies, 3:1.1, in The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I, p. 414.)

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c.310-386) - "For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless you receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning, but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures." (Catechetical Lectures, IV:17, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers [Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1983 reprint], Second Series, Vol. VII, p. 23.)

St. Gregory of Nyssa (330-395)- "...we are not entitled to such license, namely, of affirming whatever we please. For we make Sacred Scripture the rule and the norm of every doctrine. Upon that we are obliged to fix our eyes, and we approve only whatever can be brought into harmony with the intent of these writings." (On the Soul and the Resurrection, quoted in Jaroslav Pelikan, The Emergence of the Catholic Tradition [Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1971], p. 50.)


St. Gregory of Nyssa -

"Let the inspired Scriptures then be our umpire, and the vote of truth will be given to those whose dogmas are found to agree with the Divine words." (On the Holy Trinity, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. V, p. 327.)

St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430)- "Let them show their church if they can, not by the speeches and mumblings of the Africans, not by the councils of their bishops, not by the writings of any of their champions, not by fraudulent signs and wonders, because we have been prepared and made cautious also against these things by the Word of the Lord; but [let them show their church] by a command of the Law, by the predictions of the prophets, by songs from the Psalms, by the words of the Shepherd Himself, by the preaching and labors of the evangelists; that is, by all the canonical authorities of the sacred books." (On the Unity of the Church, 16, quoted in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, Part I [Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971], p. 159.)

St. Augustine of Hippo - "What more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For Holy Scripture sets a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wise more than it behooves to be wise,” but be wise, as he says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God has allotted the measure of faith.” (On the Good of Widowhood, 2, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. III, p. 442. The quotation is from Romans 12:3.)

St. John Chrysostom (c.347-407) - "Let us not therefore carry about the notions of the many, but examine into the facts. For how is it not absurd that in respect to money, indeed, we do not trust to others, but refer to [our own] calculation; but in calculating upon [theological] facts we are lightly drawn aside by the notions of others; and that too, though we possess an exact balance, and square and rule for all things, the declaration of the divine laws? Wherefore I exhort and entreat you all, disregard what this man and that man thinks about these things, and inquire from the Scriptures all these things; and having learned what are the true riches, let us pursue after them that we may obtain also the eternal good things... "(Homily 13 on 2 Corinthians, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, First Series, Vol. XII, p. 346.)

St. John Chrysostom - "Regarding the things I say, I should supply even the proofs, so I will not seem to rely on my own opinions, but rather, prove them with Scripture, so that the matter will remain certain and steadfast."(Homily 8 On Repentance and the Church, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 96, p. 118.)

St. John Chrysostom - "They say that we are to understand the things concerning Paradise not as they are written but in a different way. But when Scripture wants to teach us something like that, it interprets itself and does not permit the hearer to err. I therefore beg and entreat that we close our eyes to all things and follow the canon of Holy Scripture exactly. "(Homily 13 on Genesis.)

St. John Chrysostom - "There comes a heathen and says, "I wish to become a Christian, but I know not whom to join: there is much fighting and faction among you, much confusion: which doctrine am I to choose?" How shall we answer him? "Each of you" (says he) "asserts, 'I speak the truth.'" No doubt: this is in our favor. For if we told you to be persuaded by arguments, you might well be perplexed: but if we bid you believe the Scriptures, and these are simple and true, the decision is easy for you. If any agree with the Scriptures, he is the Christian; if any fight against them, he is far from this rule." (Homily 33 on the Acts of the Apostles [NPNF 1, 11:210-11; PG 60.243-44])

St. Basil the Great (c.329-379) - "Therefore let God-inspired Scripture decide between us; and on whichever side be found doctrines in harmony with the Word of God, in favor of that side will be cast the vote of truth. "(Letter 189 [to Eustathius the physician], 3, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. VIII, p. 229.)

St. Basil the Great - "What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if “all that is not of faith is sin” as the Apostle says, and “faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,” everything outside Holy Scripture is sin." (The Morals, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 9, p. 204.)

St. Basil the Great - "We are not content simply because this is the tradition of the Fathers. What is important is that the Fathers followed the meaning of the Scripture."
(On the Holy Spirit, 7:16.)

St. John of Damascus (c.675-c.749) - "It is impossible either to say or fully to understand anything about God beyond what has been divinely proclaimed to us, whether told or revealed, by the sacred declarations of the Old and New Testaments."
(On the Orthodox Faith, I:2, in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37.)

Protestants proof-text the Church Fathers like they do the Scriptures. You find a sentence of two that you think supports your POV -- in this case, Sola Scriptura -- and pounce on it. But if you read the Fathers in their entirety, you won't find a single one who believes in the Scriptures apart from their source -- the Church. The Church has authority and the Scriptures have authority -- both/and. The Church Fathers all were members of the Catholic Church.

Have you ever considered that all of the ancient, apostolic Churches -- the Catholic Church, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox -- are unanimous in believing in both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture? It's only the come-lately Protestants who argue for Sola Scriptura. Why? Because Martin Luther separated the Scriptures from their source and tried to make them stand alone, and Protestants follow Luther. But the Bible was never meant to stand alone.

Peace be with you,

Jim Dandy
Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Chuck Finley]

Originally Posted by Jim Dandy

Luther established the first definition of Sola Scriptura (summarized: Scripture is the highest authority). Calvin's was second: (summarized: Scripture is the only authority). Aren’t both Luther‘s and Calvin‘s teachings “historical”?

Anything in history is "historical". The issue is whether or not they are normative or authoritative.

I could just as easily say that plenary indulgences are "historic", but I doubt I'd find many Catholics who believe they're binding.

There are literally thousands of Protestant denominations, all of them with at least one doctrine or practice at variance with other denominations. Therefore, it’s impossible for Catholics to make a statement about Protestant belief that fits every Protestant.

Actually, it's not impossible at all. All Protestants agree on those doctrines defined in scripture as essential.

Protestants claim that Catholics worship Mary due to ignorance of the Truth.

Just as you repeatedly misrepresent the doctrine of sola scriptura and eternal security based on your ignorance of the truth.

Please, Mr. Finley, there’s no need for hostility and insults. Thank you.

This, of course, coming from the guy who just made false accusations against me of prooftexting.

Thanks for trying, but there is no scripture that says the Bible is the only rule of faith and practice -- or is the only authority

Actually, I never said that it's the only rule or the only authority. In fact, I said just the opposite: that we have many sources of authority. To claim that I said it's the only authority when I so clearly said that there are many is just dishonest on your part.

Therefore, SS is an unbiblical, self-defeating doctrine.

How is it self-defeating? How is it Unbiblical when I just showed you more than a dozen examples from the Bible?

At the very end of the fourth century and the beginning of the fifth, the Catholic Church selected 27 of her own writings, canonized them, and named them the New Testament. At the same time, in the very same Councils, she canonized 46 writings of the Greek Septuagint she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles and named them the Old Testament. Her entire collection of sacred Scripture she named tá Biblia -- the Book -- the Bible. The Bible is a Catholic book. Protestants can't even define "Bible" without using the list of contents formulated by the Catholic Church, because the list of "inspired" writings is not contained in the Bible.

Fine. I don't know of any Protestant wwho would argue.

Protestants proof-text the Church Fathers like they do the Scriptures.

That's a pretty serious accusation. I certainly hope you have evidence of my doing so.

You find a sentence of two that you think supports your POV -- in this case, Sola Scriptura -- and pounce on it. But if you read the Fathers in their entirety, you won't find a single one who believes in the Scriptures apart from their source -- the Church.

Where did I claim that they would believe that? And, if you're so sure that the ECFs would oppose the Biblical doctrine of sola scriptura, where is your evidence?

The Church has authority and the Scriptures have authority -- both/and. The Church Fathers all were members of the Catholic Church.

Again, no one is arguing otherwise. What's your point?

Have you ever considered that all of the ancient, apostolic Churches -- the Catholic Church, the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox -- are unanimous in believing in both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture?

How can they be when they're split?

It's only the come-lately Protestants who argue for Sola Scriptura. Why? Because Martin Luther separated the Scriptures from their source and tried to make them stand alone, and Protestants follow Luther. But the Bible was never meant to stand alone.

Who says the Bible stands alone?