Doubts About Being Catholic....

[In Training]

Originally Posted by Julia Mae

Knowing your sin is a great and good thing. Otherwise we are liable to kick our dog or punch our child and decide it wasn't really such a bad thing. Yes, yes it's very very very bad. The things we did that were bad, for whatever reason, were bad. Admit, acknowledge, apologize, regret, confess, move on.

This is the only part I disagree with. I wouldn't kick a dog, but not because I read in the Bible that it was a sin. The reason I wouldn't kick a dog is because I have no reason to hurt the dog. Common sense...logic... Not all sense of right and wrong comes from reading about what's right and wrong or being told. Most things are innate.

I might punch a baby though. Never know when a situation might call for it.

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by In Training

I might punch a baby though. Never know when a situation might call for it.

You had better watch yourself with that sort of behavior. You never know when you might inadvertently pick a fight with:

Kung Fu Baby!

Alan

[ejp123]

Originally Posted by Stratocatholic

It can be very difficult to give God the full assent of your will when you want to hang on to the very things of the world, that Christ wants you to let go of. The Church is given its authority and in turn, the Bible, by the Church. We turn to the most difficult Church and Christ with the most difficult questions of our lives. Our opinion doesn't matter. Christ is the judge of those things which for all intents and purposes, takes those questions out of our hands. At some point, you have to stop trying to rationalize the things which you think are okay which Christ says no to. Pray and know that Christ is right and speaks through the authority of the Church with the fullness of truth. I speak from experience on these matters. Your opinion could land you in hell. Christ's, who IS Truth, will lead you only to him and the fullness of eternal life, and life abundant.

I hate this line of thinking, more so the part of our opinion landing us in hell and our opinion doesn't matter. It is a shame based way of thinking that is harmful to growth. People need to think for themselves in my opinion. People need to act like adults and not let the church authority become a 3rd parent. I think this is why people get frustrated with institutional religion. They all say Our way or the highway. and of course, in there eyes theirs is the right one and way. Come on, gangs do this, leave the gang you die. the gangs way or the highway, the churches way or the highway. Needless to say i don't accept the infallibility of the Pope,,,anyway it is late and my thoughts aren't clear. so i guess this is a start.

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by ejp123

I hate this line of thinking, more so the part of our opinion landing us in hell and our opinion doesn't matter. It is a shame based way of thinking that is harmful to growth. People need to think for themselves in my opinion. People need to act like adults and not let the church authority become a 3rd parent. I think this is why people get frustrated with institutional religion. They all say Our way or the highway. and of course, in there eyes theirs is the right one and way. Come on, gangs do this, leave the gang you die. the gangs way or the highway, the churches way or the highway. Needless to say i don't accept the infallibility of the Pope,,,anyway it is late and my thoughts aren't clear. so i guess this is a start.

ejp123,
While I cannot agree entirely with your opinions above, I can understand where certain frustrations can lead to such opinion. So let's us "act like adults" here and explore just a bit.
I fully agree that people need to "think for themselves" and "act like adults". Of course part of this thinking and acting, is taking ownership and responsibility for their thoughts and more especially for ideas that they might express publicly. Such ownership and responsibility requires that one investigate and study and seek to understand the subject upon which they wish to have an opinion - or to take a position. The thinking adult needs to ask themselves why the Church to which they wish to claim fellowship teaches what she does. how long has a given thing been taught, how many have written on the subject and do their arguments make sense - and how do these various things fit with the teachings of Christ and with the authority He established in His Church.

Such study naturally takes time and during that time of study, a person must choose - do they wish to be submissive or defiant of the teachings of the Church to which they claim fellowship (if any). To me - humility says that I shall be submissive in such matters and the reason is because my Father in heaven (not a "third parent"...but the first and most important one) as told me I should.

I assume that you accept that the Bible is true and inerrant so this gives us a place to start.
In Mt 23:1-3 Jesus - Our Lord and King, says this:

Then said Jesus to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.

The scribes and Pharisees sit on Moses' seat (the seat of authority) and the Jews were to be obedient to them. Why? because this is how God had set it up in the OT.
Of course the intelligent adult might say - well that is the OT structure...and he would be right, so let's consider what Jesus says His church should do...I Refer you to Mt 18:15-18...

15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

When we have issues that we cannot resolve quietly among ourselves, most especially where the sin might be doctrinal in nature, (we don't want people teaching a "false gospel") we are to "Tell it to The Church" and then we are to "Listen to The Church" for the Church has the authority to bind and loose - "Whatever".
I believe that if you read Acts 15 you will find these instructions quite ably played out. Note that these things do not prevent argumentation or investigation - if anything we are encouraged to do so in seeking the truth. But then - once the matter is decided and communicated by the Holy Spirit through the Church...The discussion must change from arguing if something is true, to perhaps arguing for understanding and clarification.

Sorry - I get a bit carried away sometimes...

The point in all of this is simply this. If a person, who embraces the identity of Catholic - a Child of God and subject of Christ the King - wishes to act like an adult and grow spiritually, there must be a combination of submission in the teachings they are uninformed on and a careful, humble and prayerful study of those things that they may find troubling.
This is not acting like a child or making the church a "3rd parent". Rather, it is being obedient to the King of kings and to His (and our) Father who - I'm sure you will agree - is our 1st parent and not a 3rd, and worthy of ALL of our Love and obedience.

Peace
James

[Dejagirl]

Originally Posted by ejp123

I hate this line of thinking, more so the part of our opinion landing us in hell and our opinion doesn't matter. It is a shame based way of thinking that is harmful to growth. People need to think for themselves in my opinion. People need to act like adults and not let the church authority become a 3rd parent. I think this is why people get frustrated with institutional religion. They all say Our way or the highway. and of course, in there eyes theirs is the right one and way. Come on, gangs do this, leave the gang you die. the gangs way or the highway, the churches way or the highway. Needless to say i don't accept the infallibility of the Pope,,,anyway it is late and my thoughts aren't clear. so i guess this is a start.

God does give each of us free will to think for ourselves. The church should be our educator and our guide in our faith journey. It also gives us our sacraments and commandments which help us determine right from wrong. Ultimately though, the choices we make are our own and we are held into account of them by God when we die.

I agree that people do get frustrated with organized religion. I think this is mostly because our world has become increasingly secular, it makes God's commandments much harder to follow and believe. This is why I would say it's more important than ever to attend church and receive the sacraments. The devil has a much easier time penetrating our decision making/view of things when our soul has been weakened.

I'm not sure from your post if you are Catholic and have left the Church or if you just posted on this forum to be critical of Catholicism. Either way, but especially if you have been baptized Catholic, I would encourage you to talk with a Priest. Be completely honest of all of your frustrations, doubts, etc. Ultimately, I pray that he would be able to ease some of your doubts about the faith and God, but certainly the dialogue would be a healthy one for both of you.

[Gorillaman]

Originally Posted by In Training

I left the church before, for many years and it was horrible, and I promised God I'm not gonna do it again. And I'm not, I'm not I'm not I'm not. Spiritually I'm in the right place but I'm missing so many of the basics.... Over the past few months I started to finally feel good about my relationship with God, and that hasn't changed, but I listen to others talk at my church and I read some threads here and apparently there's just a lot of important things I'm missing that just aren't important to me.... Most problems people seem to have are with premarital sex/masturbation - don't get me wrong, they can be unhealthy if abused, but if not abused I don't think it's really a sin. There's a lot of things I don't think are really sins, I don't care what the bible says.

I don't care what the Bible says... I can't believe I just wrote that. I really do care, a lot, but it's easy for me to dismiss it sometimes. I haven't picked up a Bible in years, I'm too scared of the friggin thing. Which is bad because I help with a youth ministry class once a week, and I was put in that position because I said I wanted to become a priest. I definitely don't practice what I preach.

Has anyone started out this way and kind of worked their way up to being a better Catholic? My heart's in it, but I don't think my brain is, and I'm starting to get nervous. It's not easy for me to give someone else control of me, but I finally did, and now I just have no idea what He wants for me or where He's trying to lead me. I'm trying to listen, but sometimes I hear nothing, so maybe it means I have to figure things out on my own, but I don't trust myself. I need the training wheels to go back on.

As iread your words...I see how they match the ones in my mind and heart...were both in the same battle brother...I feel the same way. EXACTLY the same way...but I think me and you are in the right place...Catholics...seem to love men like us...where others seem to shun people like me away...Catholicism seems to be standing there with the bible saying come here and read this or "hey, have you heard of this saint? He's alot like what your going through..."

I was sitting in mass and the priest said..."the holy spirit is all around us...just waiting for you..and if you don't let it in today...maybe he will wait" It just made me so proud and firm in being a catholic...of course even after such love and truth...my burro brain started doubting again...so I guess I'm just saying...I'm with you. Let's just keep pushing and fighting. And everyone who's got that faith I see...please pray for men and women like me and this person..please. I know you already do though...haha.

Paz.

[ejp123]

In response to james,I don't have a problem with the church as authority, teacher, guide..etc.. set in place by Christ. I just doubt that it is infallible and think that it teeters on idolatry in how, to me, it points to itself and the pope instead of the Trinity. The short reason for my belief: After the oppression i have experienced over the years it is not convincing to me that it is infallible. Some of the moral teachings wreaked havoc on parts of my life leaving me disillusioned, empty, dead inside and ashamed. I thought and believed an infallible church could never cause such things to happen to me. At this point I have a love/hate relationship with the church that i can not resolve.Yet would like too. I have spoken to priests. One got offended which ended that talk fast. Another one said I am like a ball bouncing around in a box as he recognized that my growth was stuck and strained. I respected his answer and at that time decided to leave the institution and distanced myself about 8 years ago. but psychologically i am still very affected. perhaps i am addicted to the church and suffer from religiosity.

Someone questioned my motive for being here after my last post insinuating that I may be here to be critical of catholicism. Perhaps they were insulted. Not my intent but i understand that you may be. To answer the question of my intent,it is because I'm looking for answers which requires me to be honest and forthcoming. I am hoping to get honest responses from honest people about their true experience with scripture and the church not to just have scripture thrown at me. because the church and pope said so is not a good enough reason for me to believe anything. What is your experience with the church? is what I want to know. Maybe someone shares mine. maybe someone used to and found a solution. If you have found a solution please tell me.

[AlanFromWichita]

Originally Posted by ejp123

I just doubt that it is infallible and think that it teeters on idolatry in how, to me, it points to itself and the pope instead of the Trinity.

There is a great deal of idolatry, and I'd bet well over 90% of the typical pew-sitters fall prey to that mentality and don't even know it. There is evidence of this everywhere from homilies at Mass to these forums. We have taken the Church herself to be our God, our Judge, our Savior. We say all the right things about Jesus, but what the pastor thinks of us is more important in many cases than what we know about ourselves. For these people, the Church points to herself, not to the Trinity as you say.

Yesterday I heard a pretty good "podcast" that my son (who was just elected the youngest Grand Knight ever at our parish at age 25 ) told me about. Apparently some seminarians started doing these podcasts and as they progressed into deacons and/or priests they kept doing it.

The one I highly recommend for you, is the one called "Christological Constellations."

It's at http://catholicstuffpodcast.com/audi...tellations.mp3 and it's very good. They say we view Peter as the Church -- with the whole heirarchy. Really, we've separated Peter out from the church. The Church was not just made on Peter -- they offer a paradigm where Mary is the original Church (before Jesus's ministry) and continued to be the heart of the Church. Peter represented the people and all, James represents the traditions and order and was focused on the Jews aka Chosen People, John bring the mysticism and love, and Paul is the evangelist that does whatever he can to bring in Gentiles.

I see this as a very good and useful construct. I actually have played the role of "Paul" and "John" as they defined in this constellation, against those who claim to side with Peter and James. Once I finally got a more wholistic attitude in the midst of so many dualistic divisions, I was able to see equally from all the parts.

Alan

[JRKH]

ejp123,
Thank you for your very kind response to my post. I can see now much more clearly both why you put "catholic" in your profile and why you wrote so critically in your earlier posting.
Forgive me if I judged your position or intent too harshly.

Your response above has a number of interesting points - some of which I'd like to address, but not necessarily in the order presented...

I am hoping to get honest responses from honest people about their true experience with scripture and the church not to just have scripture thrown at me. because the church and pope said so is not a good enough reason for me to believe anything.

I promise to likewise only give honest responses, though I hope you will forgive me if I occasionally (OK - more than occasionally) "through Scripture at you" and/or quotes from the Catechism. But you see - you are asking for my "experience" and frankly - Scripture in the SS sense - played a very large role in my returning to the Church and building up my faith in Her.
What I shared in my earlier posting was, in large part the conclusions that I came to - my experience - as regards to the role of Scripture and Church in the spiritual life.
Finally - in so far as "because the Pope says so" may not be a good enough answer, I agree...But then, as a Catholic acting like an adult, the next question should be Why did the Pope say so...I mean - the Pope doesn't just spout teachings, doctrines and disciplines off the top of his head. These things are the result of much thought, prayer, discussion, and investigation - and by many people - all before "The Pope says so". Something to keep in mind moving forward.

...I don't have a problem with the church as authority, teacher, guide..etc.. set in place by Christ. I just doubt that it is infallible and think that it teeters on idolatry in how, to me, it points to itself and the pope instead of the Trinity.

An interesting observation....I'm not sure how you can think that Christ set the Church in place and it ("The Church")still be fallible...but perhaps your experience is what has colored this. For me - there must be a separation between "Church" as in documented teachings (infallible) - and church members, even clergy) who are all too fallible...
Not sure what to make of the "teeters on idolatry..." aspect..hhmmm...I can sort of "see" it, but think it would require some more investigation.

The short reason for my belief: After the oppression i have experienced over the years it is not convincing to me that it is infallible. Some of the moral teachings wreaked havoc on parts of my life leaving me disillusioned, empty, dead inside and ashamed.
I thought and believed an infallible church could never cause such things to happen to me.

Sounds like a lot of things going on here that of course we cannot get into here - all at once...But you sure have piqued my curiousity.... I hope that we will be able to help in some small way.

At this point I have a love/hate relationship with the church that i can not resolve.Yet would like to.

This is wonderful to hear.

I have spoken to priests. One got offended which ended that talk fast.

Just one of the many "fallible members" of the "infallible Church" I'm afraid...

Another one said I am like a ball bouncing around in a box as he recognized that my growth was stuck and strained. I respected his answer and at that time decided to leave the institution and distanced myself about 8 years ago. but psychologically i am still very affected. perhaps i am addicted to the church and suffer from religiosity.

What a wonderful analogy that priest provided...Just goes to show that there is good and bad to be had among our priests...
I was away from the Church for 35 years. Never really "angry" with her, mostly just drifted. A lot of questions and not many "good" answers early on. Also a hard head that had to learn things "on my own"...
But like you, my upbringing, the good examples I had in my family and just the real, basic goodness of Christ, of our Father, and His Church - especially in the Eucharist hung with me and eventually I was able to work out the issues (well - mostly..)
Trust God first and foremost....

I'd share more of my experience here but we are limited to 6000 characters per post..
Plus it is hard to know what might be useful to you. I do look forward to sharing more in the future - perhaps here, perhaps on another thread or even through PM...

God Loves you - I Love you - and hope that you will be able to find answers and peace in His Holy Church very soon. CAF is a good place to work on this - but with so many voices it can also be confusing. Perhaps a good spiritual director is in order...

Peace
James

[In Training]

Originally Posted by ejp123

At this point I have a love/hate relationship with the church that i can not resolve.

Been there.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I know when to stay away.

[ejp123]

Originally Posted by In Training

Been there.

I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I know when to stay away.

Unfortunately this is the choice that I had made. However, I still keep up with reading scripture. I love the Popes book Jesus of Nazareth. vl 1 and 2. I love the movie Jesus of Nazareth. Gibsons's movie all though I can watch it only once a year around Easter. To brutal to watch much more than that. I think I like these because I don't feel condemned and judged and like Big Brother and the moral police are looking over me.

[ejp123]

[quote=JRKH;9395159]ejp123

I was away from the Church for 35 years. Never really "angry" with her, mostly just drifted. A lot of questions and not many "good" answers early on. Also a hard head that had to learn things "on my own"...

Trying to quote James. Not sure if it worked right, Anyway, This is a great point. I think we need to grow by doing things on our own sometimes. It appears that you use the words "hard head" in negative way, but I doubt that that is where you were coming from. You were exploring life and learning some of the do's and don'ts along the way. If in the end you reached the same conclusion as the church then great, if not, then great too.!!! Should a person be punished if they don't? Should they be punished and threatened while exploring? I don't think they should. It only creates resistance and I think it disrespects the person and their integrity, or as in my case I think it pushed me into violating my own integrity. Out of fear, I disregarded my personal experience and made it irrelevant if it did not match the church, resulting in shame.

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by ejp123

Trying to quote James. Not sure if it worked right, Anyway, This is a great point. I think we need to grow by doing things on our own sometimes. It appears that you use the words "hard head" in negative way, but I doubt that that is where you were coming from. You were exploring life and learning some of the do's and don'ts along the way.

Well - when I use "hard head" it refers to my own stubbornness in rejecting "good counsel" and very often the actual lessons that experience should have taught me...

If in the end you reached the same conclusion as the church then great, if not, then great too.!!! Should a person be punished if they don't? Should they be punished and threatened while exploring? I don't think they should. It only creates resistance and I think it disrespects the person and their integrity, or as in my case I think it pushed me into violating my own integrity. Out of fear, I disregarded my personal experience and made it irrelevant if it did not match the church, resulting in shame.

There is indeed a fine line between properly guiding making one aware of consequences etc. and threatening...Sometimes that line gets crossed...
When it does, I agree that it can often create additional resistance. It does take time and the only thing that I try to tell people now is to remember to hold on to Love...Agape Love...as one explores the spiritual life.

Peace
James

[SecretGarden]

Its normal to have doubts about being Catholic, it means you are growing. What you decide to do with them is another story. Do you take time to explore the topics you are doubting or not.
If you are wanting to get into the church deeper, an idea would be to do RCIA in the Fall. That way you will gain a better knowledge about your church. I know many people who grew up Catholic and had all of the sacraments but because they were curious about the church they grew up, they dedicated themselves to it. If you are wanting a couple of simple books, reading Catholicism for Dummies and Why do Catholics Genuflect by Al Kresta are great beginner books to try.

If you want some more ideas or need a friend to talk about it, message me.

[ejp123]

Originally Posted by JRKH

ejp123,
Thank you for your very kind response to my post. I can see now much more clearly both why you put "catholic" in your profile and why you wrote so critically in your earlier posting.
Forgive me if I judged your position or intent too harshly.

Your response above has a number of interesting points - some of which I'd like to address, but not necessarily in the order presented...

I promise to likewise only give honest responses, though I hope you will forgive me if I occasionally (OK - more than occasionally) "through Scripture at you" and/or quotes from the Catechism. But you see - you are asking for my "experience" and frankly - Scripture in the SS sense - played a very large role in my returning to the Church and building up my faith in Her.
What I shared in my earlier posting was, in large part the conclusions that I came to - my experience - as regards to the role of Scripture and Church in the spiritual life.
Finally - in so far as "because the Pope says so" may not be a good enough answer, I agree...But then, as a Catholic acting like an adult, the next question should be Why did the Pope say so...I mean - the Pope doesn't just spout teachings, doctrines and disciplines off the top of his head. These things are the result of much thought, prayer, discussion, and investigation - and by many people - all before "The Pope says so". Something to keep in mind moving forward.


An interesting observation....I'm not sure how you can think that Christ set the Church in place and it ("The Church")still be fallible...but perhaps your experience is what has colored this. For me - there must be a separation between "Church" as in documented teachings (infallible) - and church members, even clergy) who are all too fallible...
Not sure what to make of the "teeters on idolatry..." aspect..hhmmm...I can sort of "see" it, but think it would require some more investigation.

Sounds like a lot of things going on here that of course we cannot get into here - all at once...But you sure have piqued my curiousity.... I hope that we will be able to help in some small way.

This is wonderful to hear.

Just one of the many "fallible members" of the "infallible Church" I'm afraid...

What a wonderful analogy that priest provided...Just goes to show that there is good and bad to be had among our priests...
I was away from the Church for 35 years. Never really "angry" with her, mostly just drifted. A lot of questions and not many "good" answers early on. Also a hard head that had to learn things "on my own"...
But like you, my upbringing, the good examples I had in my family and just the real, basic goodness of Christ, of our Father, and His Church - especially in the Eucharist hung with me and eventually I was able to work out the issues (well - mostly..)
Trust God first and foremost....

I'd share more of my experience here but we are limited to 6000 characters per post..
Plus it is hard to know what might be useful to you. I do look forward to sharing more in the future - perhaps here, perhaps on another thread or even through PM...

God Loves you - I Love you - and hope that you will be able to find answers and peace in His Holy Church very soon. CAF is a good place to work on this - but with so many voices it can also be confusing. Perhaps a good spiritual director is in order...

Peace
James

Originally Posted by JRKH

Well - when I use "hard head" it refers to my own stubbornness in rejecting "good counsel" and very often the actual lessons that experience should have taught me...


There is indeed a fine line between properly guiding making one aware of consequences etc. and threatening...Sometimes that line gets crossed...
When it does, I agree that it can often create additional resistance. It does take time and the only thing that I try to tell people now is to remember to hold on to Love...Agape Love...as one explores the spiritual life.

Peace
James

Much agreed, How something is said verses what is said can cause a lot confusion. The message can get lost if it is not presented in a manner that is inviting and of concern.