The Ten Commandments Are No Longer Relevant? - Page 2

MS_SURVEYOR · #16 Jun 11, '12, 5:26 pm

Quote:

During the homily, he suggested that we are no longer bound by The Ten Commandments.

Oh Really! Once again being mislead. Oh, all that was so long ago. Times have changed.

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Well be careful. You can think and feel that way, but to lead others in the wrong direction could cause some troubles.

**Tantum ergo** · #17 Jun 11, '12, 6:03 pm

It is possible that your priest is trying to express something but not doing as good a job as he could, and that you are probably trying to understand but maybe missing something along the way.

I often find that people lately (myself included) sometimes talk about a concept and come to a conclusion but miss putting in a premise or two between the concept and conclusion. Because I am aware of all the information myself, I know HOW I arrived at the conclusion and it makes sense. . .but to somebody who only hears the beginning and end and misses the middle, it can get confusing.

Let's hope that what the priest MEANT to say was that old Jewish law (covenant) of the 10 Commandments was not binding on Catholic Christians in the same way as it was for the Jews. (St Paul actually speaks of this as well). St Paul (and hopefully your priest as well) didn't mean that we were not to obey those commandments or that they were meaningless (they aren't, and we should obey them), but the covenant relationship that we as Christians have with Christ is not the same as the Jewish covenant. It is a FULFILLMENT of the Jewish covenant in which the early and incomplete bits (the 10 commandments of the Jews are completed and fulfilled in Christ's 2 great commandments, the sacrifice of atonement by the High priest of the Jews is completed and fulfilled in Christ's passion, death and resurrection, etc.)

So the 10 commandments are certainly relevant, but for a Jewish person, obedience to the 10 commandments ('the "Law") was considered the means of salvation.

For us, obedience to a PERSON (Christ), the EMBODIMENT of the Law, is the means of salvation. Christ is the fulfillment of the 10 commandments and the true salvation.

Anyway, that MIGHT be what the priest meant. I hope so!

**adrift** · #18 Jun 11, '12, 9:38 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tantum ergo

It is possible that your priest is trying to express something but not doing as good a job as he could, and that you are probably trying to understand but maybe missing something along the way.

I often find that people lately (myself included) sometimes talk about a concept and come to a conclusion but miss putting in a premise or two between the concept and conclusion. Because I am aware of all the information myself, I know HOW I arrived at the conclusion and it makes sense. . .but to somebody who only hears the beginning and end and misses the middle, it can get confusing.

Let's hope that what the priest MEANT to say was that old Jewish law (covenant) of the 10 Commandments was not binding on Catholic Christians in the same way as it was for the Jews. (St Paul actually speaks of this as well). St Paul (and hopefully your priest as well) didn't mean that we were not to obey those commandments or that they were meaningless (they aren't, and we should obey them), but the covenant relationship that we as Christians have with Christ is not the same as the Jewish covenant. It is a FULFILLMENT of the Jewish covenant in which the early and incomplete bits (the 10 commandments of the Jews are completed and fulfilled in Christ's 2 great commandments, the sacrifice of atonement by the High priest of the Jews is completed and fulfilled in Christ's passion, death and resurrection, etc.)

So the 10 commandments are certainly relevant, but for a Jewish person, obedience to the 10 commandments ('the "Law") was considered the means of salvation.

For us, obedience to a PERSON (Christ), the EMBODIMENT of the Law, is the means of salvation. Christ is the fulfillment of the 10 commandments and the true salvation.

Anyway, that MIGHT be what the priest meant. I hope so!

I seem to be having the same problem. You express better what I was trying to convey but could not get across. Thanks for such a good answer.

**LilyM** · #19 Jun 11, '12, 9:45 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift

Yes it does and It is a quote from the Old Testament.

But Jesus ALSO explicitly reiterated the ten commandments - to the rich young man, for example. So they are still binding, in as far as they apply to us.

Just because the day that we are to keep holy was transferred from Saturday to Sunday doesn't negate the commandment at all. It just changes its application a little - 'fulfils' it.

Similarly the fact that we now understand God to be Trinity whereas the Jews didn't in no way negates the commandment against worshipping 'other gods'.

styrgwillidar · #20 Jun 11, '12, 11:27 pm

Well, perhaps your priest meant something along the lines that it is not enough to simply obey the commandments. That is, we must be just as concerned with sins of Omission as we are with sins of Commission. Over and over again in the Bible, Christ says that if we accept Him we will do good works. We must live an active faith, it is not enough to just avoid doing wrong, if we are truly His followers we will act with love towards our fellow man. This is how He says we will be judged:

Matthew 25

'When the Son of man comes in his glory, escorted by all the angels, then he will take his seat on his throne of glory.

32 All nations will be assembled before him and he will separate people one from another as the shepherd separates sheep from goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right hand and the goats on his left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right hand, "Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take as your heritage the kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you made me welcome,

36 lacking clothes and you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to see me."

37 Then the upright will say to him in reply, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and make you welcome, lacking clothes and clothe you?

39 When did we find you sick or in prison and go to see you?"

40 And the King will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you did this to one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did it to me."

41 Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you never gave me food, I was thirsty and you never gave me anything to drink,

43 I was a stranger and you never made me welcome, lacking clothes and you never clothed me, sick and in prison and you never visited me."

44 Then it will be their turn to ask, "Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty, a stranger or lacking clothes, sick or in prison, and did not come to your help?"

45 Then he will answer, "In truth I tell you, in so far as you neglected to do this to one of the least of these, you neglected to do it to me."

46 And they will go away to eternal punishment, and the upright to eternal life.'

ETA: Note Christ didn't say the 'goats' were being condemned for evil acts they perpetrated, for commandments they broke, they are being condemned for failing to act with love towards all in His name.

JimR-OCDS · #21 Jun 12, '12, 6:23 am

It may be your priest was speaking about what St Paul wrote in the Letter to the Romans.

Quote:

Now we know that what the law* says is addressed to those under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world stand accountable to God, since no human being will be justified in his sight* by observing the law; for through the law comes consciousness of sin.m

Justification apart from the Law.*

But now* the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.p They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus,q whom God set forth as an expiation,* through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,r through the forbearance of God—to prove his righteousness in the present time, that he might be righteous and justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

What occasion is there then for boasting?* It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith.* For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.t Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not!w On the contrary, we are supporting the law.* Romans 3 19-31

In summation, all have sinned against the law, but through Jesus Christ, we are freed from the law in that we are no longer bound to the punishment we deserve.

It doesn't abolish the Ten Commandments, but frees us from the transgressions we have committed against them.

I'm not theologian and this verse was always a difficult one to understand.

Perhaps some one else could do a better job explaining it?

Jim

In Training · #22 Jun 12, '12, 10:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS_SURVEYOR

I really don't understand? What part of this we should not obey?

The Ten Commandments The Catholic Church Uses

1. I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

2. You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain

3. Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day

4. Honor your father and your mother

5. You shall not kill

6. You shall not commit adultery

7. You shall not steal

8. You shall not bear false witness

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods

Catholic Bible 101

If you follow one, does that count?

Whoops

InLight247 · #23 Jun 13, '12, 4:31 am

Read today's Gospel:

Quote:

Gospel Mt 5:17-19

Jesus said to his disciples:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets.
I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter
will pass from the law,
until all things have taken place.
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments
and teaches others to do so
will be called least in the Kingdom of heaven.
But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments
will be called greatest in the Kingdom of heaven."

Hansel Paul · #24 Jun 13, '12, 1:10 pm

Matthew 5:19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

timotheos · #25 Jun 13, '12, 5:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrift

Quote:

Mt 5:18 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

All was accomplished when Jesus died on the cross. He said it is finished.

But wait, I wonder about this part:

Quote:

Mt 5:18 "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

How about this? Why would Jesus include this if he knew his death on the cross would make it null and void? Could it be that the two different references to "accomplished" and "finished" mean different things, one pertaining to the Father and one to Jesus?

fred conty · #26 Jun 13, '12, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicMedic

This past weekend (Corpus Christi Sunday) I attended Mass at another parish (not my own).

I was puzzled by the priest's homily. During the homily, he suggested that we are no longer bound by The Ten Commandments.

I can't remember the exact quotation but it went like this;

"When people talk about preparing [examination of concience] for confession, they talk about reviewing the ten commandments. This is wrong. We are bound by the commandments of love God and love you neighbor and all of the other precepts of the NEW TESTAMENT; the new covenant."

He seemed to imply that the OLD TESTMENT and specifically the ten commandment need be followed any longer.

I found this very confusing. I have heard homiles by this priest and they are usually very good. But, he lost me on this one. Has anyone else heard anything like this?

We are still bound by the 10 commandments.
Every one of the 10 is in the New Testament, but they just are not enumerated as the 10, or in the same order.

For example, St. Paul has a number of things in his letters that we should do and that we should not do. If we pieced them all together, all 10 are still there in one form or another.

The 10 commandments say in the negative way what we should not do, and the 2 commandments Jesus gave us say in a positive way what we should do. They are brother and sister.

Just a thought.

**AlanFromWichita** · #27 Jun 13, '12, 10:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnnyjones

I've said this before too many catholics have watered down the OT. Many books are turned into allegories only because it seems "we couldn't comprehend these miraculous things" such as parting seas, a literal 6 day creation, arks, non consuming fires etc.

The ten commandment story is now "just giving you an idea of the kinda bad stuff". Wake up to the miraculous power of God then... and now.

Oh, no... a literalist!

(j/k)

It's funny you give a literal six day creation as an example of watered down Catholicism. As I understood it, the Church takes no official position on whether you must believe it is literal, and in fact allows both ways. So in fact, if "watering down" means "Church-approved interpretation" then I guess I'm guilty.

That said, read St. Paul about the law of sin and death, in Romans. He even gives "thou shalt not covet" as an example, so we know exactly what he's talking about. When one is born again they are no longer in need of this law because it is written on their hearts and the Spirit guides them. But many people think they are born again because they said some prayer or had some emotional experience. There's much more to entering the kingdom on earth than that -- but in another way it's a snap! Just gotta learn about being like a child and all.

So the Ten Commandments are to form our conscience before we are born again and enter the kingdom. Once we are in, the Beatitudes and the sermon on the mount make a much better examination of conscience. The Ten Commandments are built into our very hearts so we don't need to focus on them. Because it is no longer a dualistic contest to see if one's "conscience is clear enough" at any given moment -- but a true yearning to cry Abba Father and to heed the groanings of the Spirit leading us to Him. So instead of looking down and backwards to see if anything's holding, just keep our eyes on the prize, looking ahead at where we are taken.

It's like, I don't consciously think, "left pedal is the brake, right pedal is the gas" every time I get into the car. I've done it enough; I'm tested and capable to do that as a peripheral function. Neither do I pay attention to the commandments; if we have to focus on them, then we're not yet receiving all the blessings Jesus died to give us.

Alan

jromero0307 · #28 Jun 16, '12, 5:06 pm

The Ten Commandments are not laws that we should try to keep but are Commands from GOD to his chosen people. Just as there are laws of physics which cannot be changed to achieve problem solving was this change made to differencate the Christian from the Jew? We as Chatolics can worship on Sunday as we do but it doesn't change the Commandments. Actually we are to worship every day.
Which of the other Commandments are so grievous that we should change them?
A little leaven leaventh the whole loaf!
These are my taughts sure to continue the controversy!

thistle · #29 Jun 16, '12, 6:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatholicMedic

This past weekend (Corpus Christi Sunday) I attended Mass at another parish (not my own).

I was puzzled by the priest's homily. During the homily, he suggested that we are no longer bound by The Ten Commandments.

I can't remember the exact quotation but it went like this;

"When people talk about preparing [examination of concience] for confession, they talk about reviewing the ten commandments. This is wrong. We are bound by the commandments of love God and love you neighbor and all of the other precepts of the NEW TESTAMENT; the new covenant."

He seemed to imply that the OLD TESTMENT and specifically the ten commandment need be followed any longer.

I found this very confusing. I have heard homiles by this priest and they are usually very good. But, he lost me on this one. Has anyone else heard anything like this?

Why didn't you just ask him what he meant after Mass had ended?

**JRKH** · #30 Jun 17, '12, 6:17 am

I agree with the other posters who have said that your priest was trying to convey a very good and important lesson...Whether he did it well - or whether you heard it accurately...

I will say that your confusion points to something important as regards to Sunday sermons...While making them too "lovey dovey" is not good...making them too "theologically deep" can also be dangerous.

Your priest is quite correct that we are living under the requirements of the New Covenant, not the old. The external "law" is replaced by - or more properly restored to - the internal "written on the heart" requirements. All of the "OT Law" is summed up in the NT command to Love...
This is why St Paul can say - "All things are lawful to me but not all things are good..." (1 Cor 6:12) This is why the First council of Jerusalem could set aside the requirements of the Mosaic Law almost in it's entirety (acts 15) and still not "gut" the heart and soul of the Church.

In truth, we are not living under an easier covenant (where the commandments don't apply) but a much more difficult covenant. The one command - the command to Love - is the most difficult, time consuming, life changing, command of all...Because it actually requires us to think and not simply obey.

Peace
James