How come...?

andremiguel · #1 Jun 12, '12, 3:22 am

How come, with so many Scriptures, with so many Prophets, no one, not even the Apostles, guessed that Jesus Christ had to be crucified and die? Jesus Christ call them "ignorant" of the Scriptures and they knew the Scriptures by heart.

Could it be other wise or had it to be that way?

**NotWorthy** · #2 Jun 12, '12, 4:33 am

Have you ever noticed that people hear what they want to hear? Israel wanted a David-type king that would raise them up and remove the yoke of tyranny called Rome.

Instead, Jesus raised them up and removed the yoke of tyranny called Sin and Satan.

BTW, other than Isaiah 52-53 and Isaiah 50, how many other prophecies can you think of that foretold that the Messiah would suffer and die for our sins?

jbarbaretta · #3 Jun 12, '12, 5:07 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

Have you ever noticed that people hear what they want to hear? Israel wanted a David-type king that would raise them up and remove the yoke of tyranny called Rome.

Instead, Jesus raised them up and removed the yoke of tyranny called Sin and Satan.

BTW, other than Isaiah 52-53 and Isaiah 50, how many other prophecies can you think of that foretold that the Messiah would suffer and die for our sins?

Amen

Relevant highlights from Psalm 22 (RSV):
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ...

6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads; 8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!" ...

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. ...

16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet--

17 I can count all my bones ...

18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots."

TimothyH · #4 Jun 12, '12, 6:51 am

They may not have understood that it had to happen beforehand, but they recognized it immediately as a Passover sacrifice when it did happen.

Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.

-Tim-

COPLAND 3 · #5 Jun 12, '12, 7:01 am

A big reason for their ignorance was that the Holy Spirit was not present in God's people the way it was after Pentecost, and add that to the fact that the Old Testament prophecies were quite obscure and not very clear, which means the prophecies were often taken in a simple application and not understood in their deeper level. But the Messianic understanding began to make more sense once people had the Holy Spirit and those teaching the faith had the power of the Spirit working through them.

**NotWorthy** · #6 Jun 12, '12, 12:28 pm

The Prophecies that the Jews were anxiously awaiting were Daniel 7:13-14

Quote:

As the visions during the night continued, I saw coming with the clouds of heaven One like a son of man. When he reached the Ancient of Days and was presented before him, He received dominion, splendor, and kingship; all nations, peoples and tongues will serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away, his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed.

and Isaiah 9:5-6

Quote:

For a child is born to us, a son is given us;
upon his shoulder dominion rests.
They name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero,
Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.
His dominion is vast
and forever peaceful,
from David's throne, and over his kingdom,
which he confirms and sustains
by judgment and justice,
both now and forever.

... among others. But from what I understand, these were two of the most anticipated prophecy fulfillments.

**NotWorthy** · #7 Jun 12, '12, 12:32 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbarbaretta

Amen

Relevant highlights from Psalm 22 (RSV):
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? ...

6 But I am a worm, and no man; scorned by men, and despised by the people. 7 All who see me mock at me, they make mouths at me, they wag their heads; 8 "He committed his cause to the LORD; let him deliver him, let him rescue him, for he delights in him!" ...

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax, it is melted within my breast; 15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; thou dost lay me in the dust of death. ...

16 Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet--

17 I can count all my bones ...

18 they divide my garments among them, and for my raiment they cast lots."

Although this Psalm is a spot-on prophecy of Jesus' Passion (and a great Holy Week meditation), I don't think the Jews envisioned this as a Messianic prophecy.

PJM · #8 Jun 12, '12, 12:37 pm

Quote:

=andremiguel;9398896]How come, with so many Scriptures, with so many Prophets, no one, not even the Apostles, guessed that Jesus Christ had to be crucified and die? Jesus Christ call them "ignorant" of the Scriptures and they knew the Scriptures by heart.

Could it be other wise or had it to be that way?

Consider the times, the place, the expetations>

ALL were LOOKING for a KING type Messiah [savior]; NOT a "God"; NOT a Soul savior but one who would over-throw the Romans.

SHOULD they have? Perhaps:

There were many prophesies that could have led them to the TRUTH

.

andremiguel · #9 Jun 12, '12, 11:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

The Prophecies that the Jews were anxiously awaiting were Daniel 7:13-14

and Isaiah 9:5-6

... among others. But from what I understand, these were two of the most anticipated prophecy fulfillments.

Yes, but they were expecting a King of Israel, that's what they were waiting for.

**NotWorthy** · #10 Jun 13, '12, 4:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by andremiguel

Yes, but they were expecting a King of Israel, that's what they were waiting for.

Isn't that what I explained?

jbarbaretta · #11 Jun 13, '12, 11:42 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

Although this Psalm is a spot-on prophecy of Jesus' Passion (and a great Holy Week meditation), I don't think the Jews envisioned this as a Messianic prophecy.

True, but I was responding to the OP comment:

Quote:

no one, not even the Apostles, guessed that Jesus Christ had to be crucified and die? Jesus Christ call them "ignorant" of the Scriptures and they knew the Scriptures by heart.

The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that Jesus called them ignorant of scripture because they focused on the prophesies that benefited them the most and didn't see/understand all the prophesy that pointed out what would actually happen. Their lack of understanding was not due to lack of prophesy.

I would add that many, many people DID recognize the prophesy once it was fulfilled and explained, precisely because of their knowledge of scripture. That is why there were conversions by the thousands on Pentecost and following.

PJM · #12 Jun 13, '12, 11:43 am

Quote:

=jbarbaretta;9404515]True, but I was responding to the OP comment:

The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that Jesus called them ignorant of scripture because they focused on the prophesies that benefited them the most and didn't see/understand all the prophesy that pointed out what would actually happen. Their lack of understanding was not due to lack of prophesy.

I would add that many, many people DID recognize the prophesy once it was fulfilled and explained, precisely because of their knowledge of scripture. That is why there were conversions by the thousands on Pentecost and following.

Amen!

Great post!

**NotWorthy** · #13 Jun 13, '12, 12:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbarbaretta

True, but I was responding to the OP comment:

The point I was trying (and failing) to make was that Jesus called them ignorant of scripture because they focused on the prophesies that benefited them the most and didn't see/understand all the prophesy that pointed out what would actually happen. Their lack of understanding was not due to lack of prophesy.

I would add that many, many people DID recognize the prophesy once it was fulfilled and explained, precisely because of their knowledge of scripture. That is why there were conversions by the thousands on Pentecost and following.

Ok, sorry about that. By quoting my post, I inadvertently thought you were responding to my comment, not the OP's!

But yes, I do agree. They were anticipating the prophecies that they liked, while ignoring the prophecies that didn't look to promising.

And again, people do the same thing today. Simply hold a conversation with people who watch either a) Foxnews or b) MSNBC and you will see that people believe what they want to believe.

TimothyH · #14 Jun 13, '12, 1:44 pm

Patrick has posted about it before. The idea that the Messiah would be a temporal ruler was not universal. There were probably as many groups, each with their own idea about who and what the Messiah would be, as there are people today who argue about what the second coming of Christ will be like.

Some did view the Messiah as a temporal ruler who would throw off the Gentile oppressors and reestablish the throne of David.

Since Jesus knew that they were going to come and carry him off to make him king, he withdrew again to the mountain alone. (John 6:15)

Other's were looking for the Messiah as new Moses who would institute a new exodus. The new exodus would include the return of the manna from heaven which the Israelites ate in the first exodus. The people at the Sea of Tiberius certainly longed for a return of the manna from heaven.

So they said to him, “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written:
‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”
So Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. (John 6:30-32)

Some thought that the new exodus would be a physical exodus, and that the earth itself would be physically transformed. I believe John refers to this in the Book of Revelation:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I also saw the holy city, a new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:21-22)

This is the view Scott Hahn has in his book "The Lamb's Supper" that the transformation of the earth at the end of time will mirror the Eucharist, that the transformation of bread and wine into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is a fortaste of the transformation of all creation at the end of time. Scott Hahn says that the end of time will be "Eucharistic."

Some thought the exodus would be spiritual, an exodus from sin and death. Luke alludes to this.

About eight days after he said this, he took Peter, John, and James and went up the mountain to pray. While he was praying his face changed in appearance and his clothing became dazzling white. And behold, two men were conversing with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his exodus that he was going to accomplish in Jerusalem. (Luke 9:28-31)

Many miss the fact that in Lukes account of the transfiguration, Jesus speaks with Moses and Elijah about a second exodus. The first exodus started with a passover lamb and flight out of Egypt to escape slavery. Jesus is our paschal lamb and he died so that we could be released from slavery to sin, and then he destroyed death death by rising from the dead.

The Samaritan woman has an idea about who the Messiah will be - a mighty teacher.

The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming, the one called the Anointed; when he comes, he will tell us everything.” (John 24:25)

And the Samaritans ask him to stay and teach them for a few days.

Jews were no dummies. They were knowledgeable about scripture. They knew all the prophecies about the Messiah - Isaiah, Jerimiah, Zecheriah, and Daniel - even if they did not agree about how to interpret them. But a significant portion of the people undersood Daniel's prophecy that the Messiah would come 490 years after the exile. They could read calendars, and many were expecting the Messiah. They knew the 490 year clock was ticking, and that he would arrive soon. Not the least of these is Mary.

Mary stands in the temple looking at her twelve year old son who had disappeared for three days.

After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, (Luke 2:46)

A Mother found her Son. But this is no ordinary Jewish mother. This is the Theotokos, the Bearer of God. She is the Gebirah, the Grand-Lady and Queen-Mother. This is the Mother of God, the Mediatrix of Grace and the Co-Redemtrix. This is a woman who was specially prepared by God to give birth to the Messiah. And after finding her son in the Temple after three days, the pinnacle of creation, Mary, looks at the Second Person of the Trinity and says,

Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety. (Luke 2:48)

The perfect representative of humanity looks God in the eye and wants to know why he has left them for so long. Israel had waited 1500 years, since the time of Moses, for their Messiah, and Mary want's to know why God has waited so long. She speaks for Israel, and for the whole world when she says that she has been "Looking for you with great anxiety!"

She knew exactly who he was.

Israel longed for their Messiah, and many were looking for him. Simeon was "Looking for the consolation of Israel" and he is not alone. The entire nation of Judah was going out to John in the desert to be baptized and confess sins because they expected the Messiah soon.

My view is that the level of expectation at the time of Jesus cannot be underestimated, and Mary is a key here, because when she speaks to her son in the temple, she speaks to God, and her words are the words of all humanity. Mary speaks for all of creation.

Why have you waited so long? WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR YOU!!!

-Tim-

JonathonofOhio · #15 Jun 18, '12, 9:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotWorthy

Have you ever noticed that people hear what they want to hear? Israel wanted a David-type king that would raise them up and remove the yoke of tyranny called Rome.

Instead, Jesus raised them up and removed the yoke of tyranny called Sin and Satan.

BTW, other than Isaiah 52-53 and Isaiah 50, how many other prophecies can you think of that foretold that the Messiah would suffer and die for our sins?

They also tend, even to this day, to read what they want to read-- focusing on the parts of scripture that agree with their beliefs, and rejecting, glossing over, or explaining away what doesn't agree with them. Even back then there were groups of Jews that disagreed and some even rejected scripture that didn't agree with what they believed. That's much like today, but in today's world it's done on a much larger scale.