Spread of 'baby boxes' in Europe alarms United Nations

[SamH]

Originally Posted by seekerz

In some cases, medical history can be life-saving (in the cases of serious illnesses that run in the family, for instance) so at the very least even if these women want nothing further to do with their children, they owe them some background information to take forward in their lives. Not to mention 'small' details like date and place of birth etc.

You seem to think these mothers will willingly give that information. As we have learned in the financial world just because a debt is owed doesn't mean it will be paid.

[aicirt]

Originally Posted by SamH

The reason why I said a couple weeks is if they did a home visit and the father was a full functioning member of society that could care for the children he would be awarded the children in short order. If the father was the typical bum (as in many cases) he could drag it out for as much as a year as they attempt to give him the oppurtunity to show he has the willingness and ability to care for the children. Usually it doesn't happen and the child spends a year in limbo in foster care. If the father has already been deemed unfit by the courts (in another custody case) he might make it drag out a couple months.


Just curious - how do you know these details?

Worked in the system. And you?

[aicirt]

Originally Posted by Santi2

A responsible man would know where to go and what to do.

How? If she tells him she wants to abort, how does he stop her? If she keeps her pregnancy a secret and aborts, what's he suppose to do? How does it work in England.

[He Man]

Originally Posted by seekerz

Sorry for your experience. That does not mean everyone who finds their birth parents wish that they hadn't.

In some cases, medical history can be life-saving (in the cases of serious illnesses that run in the family, for instance) so at the very least even if these women want nothing further to do with their children, they owe them some background information to take forward in their lives. Not to mention 'small' details like date and place of birth etc.

True, but even finding your mother if you are a foreign adoptee is almost impossible at times.

[aicirt]

Originally Posted by seekerz

Scratching my head over this one. Surely, abandoning a baby where it will be cared for is better than aborting it, but how do baby boxes prevent women from choosing abortion? As for infanticide, I had no idea that it was a problem in Europe or anywhere else in the developed world.

Yes, a child does have a right to know it's parents BUT the right to life takes precedence. It just seems to me really odd that someone who cares enough to not take their baby's life prior to birth or immediately after, would not care enough to ensure an appropriate adoptive home.

This simply smacks of gross irresponsibility masquerading as choosing the lesser of two evils.

There are many and varied reasons why people do what they do. Let's say incest. Can't bring herself to abort the baby but doesn't want to give all the ugly info to social workers and doesn't want to press charges. Putting baby in box outside the firestation is good plan for her predicament. No questions asked, no answers given.

Case shown of TV where a well-to-do family forbid daughter from marrying a man not to their liking. Took adult woman to Italy, had baby in hotel, Grandmother of child dropped newborn off at convent where a nun found him. American father, obviously knew of pregnancy, fought for years to find child and get him back. He did succeed.

[SamH]

Originally Posted by aicirt

Worked in the system. And you?

Foster parent for the last several years, CASA work, and currently adopting from the foster system.

[Santi2]

Originally Posted by aicirt

How? If she tells him she wants to abort, how does he stop her?

If she tells him about the pregnancy then, it's a sign that the woman is uncertain about abortion and chances are she is searching for alternatives outside of killing the child. All that's left for the man to do is to own up to his responsibilities as a father or, propose alternatives in the manner that pro-life networks do.

If she keeps her pregnancy a secret and aborts, what's he suppose to do?

What is there to do if the unplanned pregnancy and the abortion is never disclosed? He cannot act on something he is/was not aware of.

How does it work in England

Same as in most countries which allow women unfettered discretion to kill the unborn. Our laws generally sods all. There have been legal actions and injunctions in the past by fathers against abortion but, excepting one, those have been unsuccessful.

[seekerz]

Originally Posted by SamH

You seem to think these mothers will willingly give that information. As we have learned in the financial world just because a debt is owed doesn't mean it will be paid.

So true. However simply knowing who the mother is can provide access to information like birth and death records - she doesn't necessarily have to cooperate. Any info is better than knowing absolutely nothing of one's origins, I would imagine.

[seekerz]

Originally Posted by aicirt

There are many and varied reasons why people do what they do. Let's say incest. Can't bring herself to abort the baby but doesn't want to give all the ugly info to social workers and doesn't want to press charges. Putting baby in box outside the firestation is good plan for her predicament. No questions asked, no answers given.

Case shown of TV where a well-to-do family forbid daughter from marrying a man not to their liking. Took adult woman to Italy, had baby in hotel, Grandmother of child dropped newborn off at convent where a nun found him. American father, obviously knew of pregnancy, fought for years to find child and get him back. He did succeed.

I agree that there must be several different reasons why people do what they do, none of which are necessarily scenarios that put the baby's interest first.

Even if the child is a product of incest, what's to prevent the mother from simply withholding info on the baby's father? Seems to me that anonymous abandonment could facilitate the cover-up of sexual abuse...It's just not natural.

[aicirt]

Originally Posted by Santi2

If she tells him about the pregnancy then, it's a sign that the woman is uncertain about abortion and chances are she is searching for alternatives outside of killing the child. All that's left for the man to do is to own up to his responsibilities as a father or, propose alternatives in the manner that pro-life networks do.



What is there to do if the unplanned pregnancy and the abortion is never disclosed? He cannot act on something he is/was not aware of.



Same as in most countries which allow women unfettered discretion to kill the unborn. Our laws generally sods all. There have been legal actions and injunctions in the past by fathers against abortion but, excepting one, those have been unsuccessful.

You previously said "a responsible man would know where to go and what to do". According to your last paragraph above, we both agree the man/father has little, as in zilch, rights.

The above first paragraph is an assumption. She can tell him and she might really mean it. Once again, he has no recourse.

[Santi2]

Originally Posted by aicirt

You previously said "a responsible man would know where to go and what to do". According to your last paragraph above, we both agree the man/father has little, as in zilch, rights.

The above first paragraph is an assumption. She can tell him and she might really mean it. Once again, he has no recourse.

I still stand by what I said earlier: A responsible man would know where to go and what to do. If the mother still decides to kill their child, and having done all he could, the attribution of moral culpability for the death of that child is not on the father but, on the mother. In these cases, there is no transfer of malice and you assess the conduct of the father. I now pose the same query to you: Where would you go and what would you do if you were the man in the first instance?

As to assumption: once a woman opens her mouth about contemplating abortion, or sets foot in a pro-life counselling centre, the general assumption is that she wants and needs help. One defeats pro-life work to assume otherwise. One is also in danger of judging the woman as morally repugnant and defeats hope that God cannot change the woman's heart. In my work with pro-life over the years, I have yet to come across a woman who approached me about contemplated abortion and decided to kill the child all the same after having received counselling and been told of proposed alternatives.

[epan]

Originally Posted by Nine_Two

While it would be nice if children could know their parents, it is certainly better than the alternative.

We allow abortions without question, why can't we allow adoption without question?

We do.

Every state has a "safe haven" laws for newborns. Newborn abandonment has increased, and these laws have been put in place over the past 6 years. Places such as hospitals or fire stations are designated places to leave a baby.

Here is a link to "Safe Haven" resource site. You can scroll over any state to see what the safe haven drop off points are, and how long after birth. The time zone ranges from 3 days to one year, depending on the state: http://safehaven.tv/states/

[aicirt]

Originally Posted by Santi2

I still stand by what I said earlier: A responsible man would know where to go and what to do. If the mother still decides to kill their child, and having done all he could, the attribution of moral culpability for the death of that child is not on the father but, on the mother. In these cases, there is no transfer of malice and you assess the conduct of the father. I now pose the same query to you: Where would you go and what would you do if you were the man in the first instance?

As to assumption: once a woman opens her mouth about contemplating abortion, or sets foot in a pro-life counselling centre, the general assumption is that she wants and needs help. One defeats pro-life work to assume otherwise. One is also in danger of judging the woman as morally repugnant and defeats hope that God cannot change the woman's heart. In my work with pro-life over the years, I have yet to come across a woman who approached me about contemplated abortion and decided to kill the child all the same after having received counselling and been told of proposed alternatives.

I have absolutely no idea where a man would go. Where do you suggest?

[Mickey Finn]

Originally Posted by St Francis

We are continually being told in the US that we have to emulate Europe with their socialist democracy because the reason women have abortions is they don't have enough money.

This is Europe! I guess that cradle-to-grave government aid isn't really enough!

Easy there. We have a similar law here in Michigan. The idea was to prevent newborns being thrown into dumpsters. The parent is not doing the right thing, so the "STATE" must.