Benedictine Oblate #2

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Sad news today. Blue Cloud Abbey is closing.

http://www.bluecloud.org/FromTheAbbot.html

Please join me in praying that all of the monks find good homes in other monasteries, preferably with as many of them getting to stay together as possible.


Peace,

I wonder what will happen to the property? It's probably been sold.

I hope the monks all find good communities to enter, too, especially the older ones.

[jwinch2]

Does anyone have any thoughts on Esther De Waal's writings in terms of quality, orthodoxy, etc.?

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by Tampa Dave

By the way, its been about nine days since I wrote the lay director (?) of the Benedictine oblate program at St. Leo Abbey. He said he would send me a few "thoughtful" e-mails in response to my inquiry, then follow up with a phone call. His e-mail was quite positive, so I imagine he just hasn't had the time to respond. He leads the oblate group and writes the their monthly newsletter (he immediately put me on the list to receive each newsletter).

I need to have patience, one of those esteemed virtues I hope to acquire from the Benedictines, along with humility and obedience, to name a few.

Nonetheless, I'm anxious for a game plan. I have a few books on Benedictine spirituality and monastic life in general, but I'm really excited to get hands on experience within a monastery. You might recall he suggested I attend meetings, etc., at Saint Benedict Monastery (Virginia) as a guest while actually commencing the discernment process with St. Leo Abbey. I believe its appropriate to wait for additional advice before I contact the Virginia monastery.

Just a friendly heads up. It may be worth asking the questions we discussed above with the Oblate Director, regarding Magesterial fidelity if you have not already done so. This particular conference took place at St. Leo University which may or may not suggest some sort of tacit support for the group at hand. The priest quoted in the article is one who I believe has had issues in terms of support for women's ordination, etc. in the past. In this current situation he is obviously a bit off in his interpretation for the situation between the Vatican and the LCWR.

http://www2.tbo.com/lifestyles/faith...sio-ar-415804/

If you have already asked that question, I would be curious as to the response if you are comfortable sharing it.


Peace,

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Does anyone have any thoughts on Esther De Waal's writings in terms of quality, orthodoxy, etc.?

Jason,

I may be jumped all over for saying this, but there is some merit in reading things that you might not totally agree with. Do you know what I mean? It's an intellectual exploration thing. I've been formally trained as a philosopher, which assumes that I read with my eyes open and my mind and faculties turned on. I often read things that are exploratory in nature, and people I know sometimes say, "Why on earth would you read *that*?" I read it because in thinking about what I'm reading analytically and abstractly, as well as in practical terms, I come to know more about what is true when I explore the boundaries of what "true-ness" might be. Do you see what I'm saying?

For instance, with this author you're asking about, Esther de Waal, she's an Anglican, wife of a fairly high-profile Anglican priest. Well, what does that mean? I probably wouldn't take her word on whether I should be Catholic or Anglican. I probably shouldn't care what she thinks of married priests and so on. Doctrinally she may be in no-mans-land. However, she might well have something to say to me about interpretation of what it means to live a life of prayer, or live as a Christian. I won't know that til I really read deeply anything she has to say and mull it over for its value in a bunch of different ways. Then if it's shallow, or if it neglects important things, or if it's just flat out wrong in some way, I'll know it.

I can't tell you how many authors whose books I have tossed on the floor with disgust. Maybe Esther de Waal is like that, maybe not. A small number of people really don't have anything original to say, but most have something to say. There is an old saying that goes, "You can learn something from everyone." Probably it's close to being true, even if only the thing that you learn is that you don't agree with them, or "here is how to go off the rails."

A great example of what I'm talking about is Thomas Merton, the Trappist. I loved reading Merton, regardless of the real truth about Merton. And he taught me a lot of real value, not because he taught me anything creedal or doctrinal or even moral, no. He was in a bit of trouble from time to time, actually more than a bit. Nevertheless, after finding out all that, I didn't deem his books I'd read some kind of a waste or anything like that. Why? He taught me things that he evoked from me as I read him and prayed about what was going on with me in my relationship with God. I learned things that are, in the final analysis, independent of Merton by reading Merton, and in a way I have Merton to thank for that. Do you see what I mean?

You know, I have a problem with the things that have happened in the Church in the last 40 years, as I think you do. I also think that there's a problem with imposing speculative theology and speculative philosophy on people who aren't equipped to negotiate it, and frankly speaking, the great majority of pew Catholics aren't equipped to deal with it in any way, shape or form. It's not bad or a negative thing to say; it's just true. But--and this is really different--when you leave the catechesis arena where you're teaching people who are looking for basic creedal "bites" like that because it's all they want, or all they can do, or all they will accept, and enter an arena like genuine exploration of the spiritual life, then it's a little different. I mean the assumption is that there is some activity going on that exceeds making lists, learning basics, getting it done and saving time, and the like. Are there mistakes a person can make? Yes, and they're not all literal. You must learn as you go. I hope you see what I mean and take this in the spririt with which it was intended--in a completely friendly way and with much respect.

PS, I avoid the sort of confabs you were talking about earlier, the VII hold-out thing at St. Leo's etc. That sort of thing is something else entirely, falling into an entirely different sphere of activity. Luckily I don't have to be involved in such stuff.

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by iloveangels

Jason,

I may be jumped all over for saying this, but there is some merit in reading things that you might not totally agree with. Do you know what I mean? It's an intellectual exploration thing.

I understand where you are coming from. In my professional life as a professor and researcher, I take the same approach. However, I am not really interested in following that path in my spiritual life at this time. Obviously, as you mentioned, de Waal is Anglican so I wouldn't expect to find everything agreeing with Church doctrine. However, I would still expect it to fall within authentic Benedictine tradition in terms of spirituality and interpretation of the Holy Rule. If her writings do not do those things, I have no desire to spend my time or money on them at this stage of my life.

Thanks for the comments, and peace.

Jason

[iloveangels]

The other thing that needs to go with what I just wrote is a clarification on "reading with my eyes open and my faculties turned on." Even though I'm using my faculties, I'm not making them "King." Rather what I'm doing is recognizing, and rightly, that there is no divorce between reason and faith. I am supposed to use both together because they augment and compliment each other in the proper order of things. In the same way I can say, "It's very, very important, as demonstrated by the great saints of the Church, that a person looking for a spiritual life be grounded in the truth of the Gospel."

There is an analogy between the senses of scripture involved in exegesis and the pursuit of the spiritual life. One has to pay attention to the literal and the spiritual senses, which are allegorical, moral and anagogical in nature.* You can't focus exclusively on the literal (getting 10 rosaries in...TODAY!) or the moral (this is wrong and that's wrong and....) or the anagogical (everyone is going to heaven, yippee!), although they all need the appropriate and correct kind of attention: a person looking for deeper spiritual life needs disciplined prayer time, some attention to the moral undertakings in their own life, and hope in God's mercy and ultimately the promises of God and salvation.

*CCC, paragraphs 116-118.

[iloveangels]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

I understand where you are coming from. In my professional life as a professor and researcher, I take the same approach. However, I am not really interested in following that path in my spiritual life at this time. Obviously, as you mentioned, de Waal is Anglican so I wouldn't expect to find everything agreeing with Church doctrine. However, I would still expect it to fall within authentic Benedictine tradition in terms of spirituality and interpretation of the Holy Rule. If her writings do not do those things, I have no desire to spend my time or money on them at this stage of my life.

Thanks for the comments, and peace.

Jason

I understand, Jason and thanks for your comments too. A person can only read so many books and I do some preliminary weeding too, because I have to.

[Tampa Dave]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Just a friendly heads up. It may be worth asking the questions we discussed above with the Oblate Director, regarding Magesterial fidelity if you have not already done so. This particular conference took place at St. Leo University which may or may not suggest some sort of tacit support for the group at hand. The priest quoted in the article is one who I believe has had issues in terms of support for women's ordination, etc. in the past. In this current situation he is obviously a bit off in his interpretation for the situation between the Vatican and the LCWR.

http://www2.tbo.com/lifestyles/faith...sio-ar-415804/

If you have already asked that question, I would be curious as to the response if you are comfortable sharing it.


Peace,

Fidelity to the Magisterium is critical. The conference you referenced was held at St. Leo University versus St. Leo Abbey. There is no evidence that St. Leo monks are affiliated with, or support, the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests. I cannot draw any adverse conclusions. When I hear from the oblate director, I will inquire further. I support ecumenism and welcome the opportunity to study and pray with Protestant oblates in a fairly orthodox Catholic environment. I remain optimistic that things will work out with St. Leo Abbey.

[jwinch2]

Originally Posted by Tampa Dave

Fidelity to the Magisterium is critical. The conference you referenced was held at St. Leo University versus St. Leo Abbey. There is no evidence that St. Leo monks are affiliated with, or support, the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests. I cannot draw any adverse conclusions. When I hear from the oblate director, I will inquire further. I support ecumenism and welcome the opportunity to study and pray with Protestant oblates in a fairly orthodox Catholic environment. I remain optimistic that things will work out with St. Leo Abbey.

The monks don't run the university? At St. Gregory's Abbey, the monks are in charge of the university (St. Gregory's) also. Interesting... My impression was that they were at the least affiliated since you mentioned looking into the university earlier in the thread.

Peace,

[Tampa Dave]

I did not research the governing board at St Leo University. My prior experience with John Carroll University and Chaminade University of Honolulu leads me to believe the monks have a significant leadership role at the University, not unlike the Jesuits and Marianists at the institutions noted above. But the mere act of physically hosting a conference doesn't necessarily imply that the St. Leo monks sympathize with the mission of the Association of U.S. Catholic Priests. Georgetown University hosted Kathleen Sebelius, yet they recently denounced adherence to her views. You might find it interesting that the information officer at St. Leo Abbey [my contact] is a former atheist and former evangelical Protestant. For all I know, he may be an enthusiastic Catholic convert and scholar like Scott Hahn. Intriguing, eh?

[Luigi Daniele]

Originally Posted by jwinch2

Does anyone have any thoughts on Esther De Waal's writings in terms of quality, orthodoxy, etc.?

They are OK. Just OK. She is not a Catholic.

[Tampa Dave]

If the truth be told, I remain intrigued by the Secular Franciscan Order. While I find Benedictine spirituality and attachment to a particular monastery very appealing, I cannot discount the attraction of St. Francis of Assisi. I have family ties to Franciscan University of Steubenville, so I'm somewhat acquainted with the Order. Moreover, secular Franciscans are well situated throughout Northern Virginia and the Florida Gulf Coast, thus enhancing my chances of finding a reasonably close fraternity faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy See. I will nonetheless patiently await a response from St. Leo Abbey before proceeding further. Its not like the Franciscans are a second choice - they are equally inspiring by any measure.

On a side note, Brother JR once described the requirements for becoming a Franciscan postulate, noting that "[t]he Formation Director must ask you for your baptism certificate, confirmation certificate, a reference from your pastor or spiritual director and proof that you are not a member of another order. A statement from your spiritual director or pastor is enough, as long as they know you well." How do you prove a negative, to wit: non-membership in another religious order?

I just turned 56 years old! My baptismal and confirmation certificates, if they still exist, are back in Ohio covered with ancient layers of dust. At least the record of my Catholic wedding is slightly more recent at 27 years old. We have been active members of our local Catholic parish in Virginia for decades.

[Luigi Daniele]

Originally Posted by Tampa Dave

If the truth be told, I remain intrigued by the Secular Franciscan Order. While I find Benedictine spirituality and attachment to a particular monastery very appealing, I cannot discount the attraction of St. Francis of Assisi. I have family ties to Franciscan University of Steubenville, so I'm somewhat acquainted with the Order. Moreover, secular Franciscans are well situated throughout Northern Virginia and the Florida Gulf Coast, thus enhancing my chances of finding a reasonably close fraternity faithful to the Magisterium and the Holy See. I will nonetheless patiently await a response from St. Leo Abbey before proceeding further. Its not like the Franciscans are a second choice - they are equally inspiring by any measure.

On a side note, Brother JR once described the requirements for becoming a Franciscan postulate, noting that "[t]he Formation Director must ask you for your baptism certificate, confirmation certificate, a reference from your pastor or spiritual director and proof that you are not a member of another order. A statement from your spiritual director or pastor is enough, as long as they know you well." How do you prove a negative, to wit: non-membership in another religious order?

I just turned 56 years old! My baptismal and confirmation certificates, if they still exist, are back in Ohio covered with ancient layers of dust. At least the record of my Catholic wedding is slightly more recent at 27 years old. We have been active members of our local Catholic parish in Virginia for decades.

1. I think that they take your word for it, TBH (non-membership).


2. I, too, am torn between the OFS and the Oblates. Decision time is the 1st 2 weeks in July.

3. The certificates are a requirement. I believe that you can have a priest vouch for you, though (ie, that he has seen the records, if not the actual certificates).


4. You are lucky: with that many OFS Fraternities, you are bound to find an orthodox one.

5. Check out this thread (it is about the SSPX, but Brother Jay has many posts relating to the Franciscans) http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=685495

[Tampa Dave]

Thanks for the response, Luigi. I imagine the various Catholic parishes maintain their records for quite some time. At least I hope so. I will look at the forum you suggested for further information.

The Franciscans I know are pretty much in line with the Magisterium. I've heard rumors of some groups that are the "We are the World" or "Kumbaya" types. Brother JR said that secular Franciscans were trying to get back to the concept of fraternity, contemplation and prayer, versus public works or parish assistance. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea. If I simply wanted to do public works or help the local parish, I would join the Knights of Columbus.

There is something purposeful and noble in public works, don't get me wrong. I want to develop my spirituality and focus on prayer, contemplation and fraternity. Association with a conservative Franciscan fraternity or a similarly inclined Benedictine monastery may do the trick.

Good luck with your pending decision! My prayers are with you, sir.

[Luigi Daniele]

Originally Posted by Tampa Dave

Thanks for the response, Luigi. I imagine the various Catholic parishes maintain their records for quite some time. At least I hope so. I will look at the forum you suggested for further information.

The Franciscans I know are pretty much in line with the Magisterium. I've heard rumors of some groups that are the "We are the World" or "Kumbaya" types. Brother JR said that Franciscans were trying to get back to the concept of fraternity, contemplation and prayer, versus public works or parish assistance. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea. If I simply wanted to do public works or help the local parish, I would join the Knights of Columbus.

There is something purposeful and noble in public works, don't get me wrong. I want to develop my spirituality and focus on prayer, contemplation and fraternity. Association with a conservative Franciscan fraternity or a similarly inclined Benedictine monastery may do the trick.

Good luck with your pending decision! My prayers are with you, sir.

Thank you (I believe that they retain the records permanently. Visiting Italy, I was able to search my family's Church records back to the 1300's).

Actually the Franciscan are contemplative and do public works. There is a famous story that has Francis wrestling with the idea of which to do, prayer or work. Chiara (Clare) and a very devout brother whose name escapes me just now both answered: Both.

If you are drawn to contemplation (Lectio Divina), then go with the Bennies.