If your devotion to Christ was half your devotion to Mary, you wouldn't need your devotion to Mary.

[losh14]

Originally Posted by nickybr38

Why ask ANYONE to pray for you?

All I can say now is that the more people we ask to pray for us (even Mary), the more graces we receive. Why separate ourselves from the communion of saints when we can be part of it?

Well-taken, and if I ask Mary to pray for me she prays to God. If I ask Paul, Irenaeus or Maximilian Kolbe, he prays to God. The question that I ask that you reference is why does God give all the prayers to Mary who then gives them to God?

[nickybr38]

Originally Posted by losh14

Well-taken, and if I ask Mary to pray for me she prays to God. If I ask Paul, Irenaeus or Maximilian Kolbe, he prays to God. The question that I ask that you reference is why does God give all the prayers to Mary who then gives them to God?

I must have misunderstood somewhere... I don't believe she takes all the prayers sent to anyone... she only takes the ones addressed to her and directs them to God?

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if someone else is...

[losh14]

I ask about prayer and am told Mary offers all prayers to God, but object that I don't believe a prayer I offer to Jesus Christ is intercepted by Mary. I receive two responses that cannot both be correct:

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

She doesn't intercept. God delivers them to her so she can in turn deliver them to God.

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

Mary has the same power and will as Jesus Christ, She is Queen Mother, everything Christ has by nature, Mary has by grace. So how could she not hear prayers?

Either Mary hears them by God giving them to her, or Mary has the power of Christ to receive prayer. This is important because it speaks to Mary's glorified nature - how close is she to God, and hence how close must we be to her in order to seek God and have hope of salvation?

It would also help to know why God gives Mary this task anyway when He can do it Himself.

Originally Posted by SonCatcher

Why does any parent double his work by letting his
children "help"?

So they will know how to do it on their own when they take charge of their own household. But God isn't grooming Mary to replace Him. Or to humor the children and let them feel like they're helpng out, but this is an immature way to think of Mary.

[De_Montfort]

Originally Posted by losh14

I ask about prayer and am told Mary offers all prayers to God, but object that I don't believe a prayer I offer to Jesus Christ is intercepted by Mary. I receive two responses that cannot both be correct:





Either Mary hears them by God giving them to her, or Mary has the power of Christ to receive prayer. This is important because it speaks to Mary's glorified nature - how close is she to God, and hence how close must we be to her in order to seek God and have hope of salvation?

It would also help to know why God gives Mary this task anyway when He can do it Himself.


So they will know how to do it on their own when they take charge of their own household. But God isn't grooming Mary to replace Him. Or to humor the children and let them feel like they're helpng out, but this is an immature way to think of Mary.

Sorry if I misunderstood you this is what St. Louis de Montfort says...

"Mary was created only for God, and it is unthinkable that she should reserve even one soul for herself. On the contrary she leads every soul striaght to God and to union with him. Mary is the wonderful echo of God. The more a person joins himself to her, the more effectively she unites him to God. When we say 'Mary' she re-echoes 'God". When, like St. Elizabeth, we call her blessed, she gives the honor to God."
(St. Louis de Montfort)

"Mary presents our good works to Jesus. She does not keep anything we offer for herself, as if she were our last end, but unfailingly gives everything to Jesus. So by the very fact we give anything to her, we are giving it to Jesus. Whenever we praise and glorify her, she immediately praises and glorifies Jesus. When anyone praises and blesses her, she sings today as she did on the day Elizabeth praised her, 'My soul glorifies the Lord.'"
(St. Louis de Montfort)

"Let us not imagine, then as some misguided teachers do, that Mary being simply a creature would be a hindarnce to a union with the Creator. Far from it, for it is no longer Mary who lives but Jesus Christ himself, God alone, who lives in her. Her transformation into God far surpasses that experienced by St. Paul and other saints, more than heaven surpasses the earth."
(St. Louis de Montfort)

Anything given to Mary is given to Jesus. It's all for Him. Mary is not our "last end" Jesus is, she's the surest, immaculate, and perfect guide to Jesus. She takes all our prayers and good works and gives them immediately to Christ for His greater glory!

[losh14]

Originally Posted by nickybr38

I must have misunderstood somewhere... I don't believe she takes all the prayers sent to anyone... she only takes the ones addressed to her and directs them to God?

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if someone else is...

I think there's not total agreement on Mary's role in Christian life. I believe she prays on our behalf as all saints pray on our behalf.

But I've also been told that all prayer - directed to Mary or not - goes through Mary, whether because God won't hear our prayer without Mary's intercession or because Mary makes our prayers presentable to God.

And we again have Montfort:

Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. (The Secret of Mary, 2 B 50)

Thoughts?

[losh14]

Thank you, De_Montfort, you put my mind at ease somewhat with these passages. Clearly I have misunderstood.

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

Anything given to Mary is given to Jesus. It's all for Him. Mary is not our "last end" Jesus is, she's the surest, immaculate, and perfect guide to Jesus. She takes all our prayers and good works and gives them immediately to Christ for His greater glory!

But can you help me clear up this from Montfort?

[quote=losh14;9413988]
Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. (The Secret of Mary, 2 B 50)

I personally disagree with the above statement, and I wouldn't have to look hard to find support in Scripture and from saints.

[De_Montfort]

Originally Posted by losh14

Thank you, De_Montfort, you put my mind at ease somewhat with these passages. Clearly I have misunderstood.



But can you help me clear up this from Montfort?

You have to remember that this is a devotion in loving our Lord tenderly. It takes humility to practice this devotion.

But have we no need at all of a mediator with the Mediator himself? Are we pure enough to be united directly to Christ without any help? Is Jesus not God, equal in every way to the Father? Therefore is he not the Holy of Holies, having a right to the same respect as his Father? If in his infinite love he wished to appease in order to redeem us from our debts, should we on that account show him less respect and have less regard for the majesty and holiness of his person?
Let us not be afraid to say with St. Bernard that we need a mediator with the Mediator himself and the divinely-honored Mary is the one most able to fulfill this office of love. Through her, Jesus came to us, through her, we should go to him.
(St.Louis de Montfort)

I don't know about anyone else, but I am a GREAT SINNER and I know Jesus loves me dispite, but that also means that I am flawed and my love for Him is distorted. Mary loves Jesus, Jesus was Her life, She does everything to glorify Him. She shares and enflames our hearts to Love Christ more beautifully. At the Cross and His whole life Jesus shared his love for men with His Mother. St. Maximilian Kolbe hit the nail on the head when he states that Mary is the personification of the Holy Spirit, the "Mercy" of God!
And God wills to work through Her. The Holy Spirit would not espouse Mary and then disown Her, that would be divorce, when God espoused Mary he did it eternally. She personifies God's mercy.

You also have to remember Her whole desire and Mission is to give us Jesus...

"But whatever gifts this sovereign and lovable Queen bestows upon us, she is not satisfied until she has given us incarnate Wisdom, Jesus her Son; and she is ever on the look out for those who are worthy of Wisdom, so that she may give him to them."
(St. Louis de Montfort)

[SonCatcher]

Originally Posted by losh14

Either Mary hears them by God giving them to her, or Mary has the power of Christ to receive prayer. This is important because it speaks to Mary's glorified nature - how close is she to God, and hence how close must we be to her in order to seek God and have hope of salvation?

They are the same. God's gift is Christ's power.

So they will know how to do it on their own when they take charge of their own household. But God isn't grooming Mary to replace Him. Or to humor the children and let them feel like they're helpng out, but this is an immature way to think of Mary.

Naturally, THAT is an immature way to think of it. May I posit another alternative?

The parent also shares work with his children out of love for them, to improve their family bond and instill worth in them.

[FCEGM]

Originally Posted by losh14

. . .

I am still leery of extending the espousal by the Spirit that brought Christ's humanity into being into a sharing of Mary in the Divine Nature and Divine Power. Humanity yet remains humanity, albeit glorified, in Heaven, and Divinity is always Divinity. The two are of separate substances, and to commingle them is difficult.

Not for God. This is why St. Peter is able to say: "His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and power. Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire." (1 Peter 1:3-4).

It would be helpful for you to read The Spiritual Canticle by St. John of the Cross; he would help you better understand how and why the soul can become so transformed by grace to share in the divine nature (begun at Baptism). All that St. John articulates regarding the height and depth and breadth to which the soul is called is applied in spades to the Blessed Virgin.

And even so, if the union is as substantive as you say, then if to honor Mary is to honor the Spirit, and to honor the Spirit is to honor the Spirit, it should not matter whether I practice devotion to Mary or to the Spirit

Yes, the union is substantive, but the distinction of the Divine Person and the divinized person of Mary remains; thus the worship of the Holy Spirit remains worship and the Chuch's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is the fitting devotion towards His spouse.

This encyclical of Pope St. Pius X might be helpful in illuminating for you the Church's understanding of Mary's role in our lives:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...ssimum_en.html

[oneofmany]

Well, I don't think devotion to Mary is mandated by the church. It's a good devotion but I don't think you are forced to have it.

I have seen Mary used as a scapegoat for people to stop coming to Mass. I believe they have a bigger problem than just with Mary but they won't admit to it. Maybe they don't know themselves but I do know Mary would be saddened for them to stay away from worshipping her Son because of her.

So if you have a problem with it then just go to Christ and don't worry about it. Other people find comfort in prayers to Mary, especially the rosary. If it bothers you then don't do it. Maybe some day you will find a need for it, but Mary still wants you to put Jesus first anyway.

[losh14]

Perhaps we are at the core of my differences with Montfort. I thank you for exploring this more deeply with me.

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

You have to remember that this is a devotion in loving our Lord tenderly. It takes humility to practice this devotion.

Humility, certainly, but humility allows us to approach the Lord on our knees, it does not think us incapable of approaching the Lord altogether. Rather, Christ's mission was to bring Himself - in the fullness of His Divinity - to us. This is why we celebrate the Eucharist and consume nothing less than the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord. It is a contradiction to say we cannot approach the same God who offers Himself so abundantly to us. If you cannot pray to God directly, nor should you be able to partake of the Eucharist, and yet the Eucharist is offered to us daily if we but approach with our sins confessed and our hearts on Christ, and the Church does not tell those who do so that they should abstain from the Eucharist for the purposes of humility.

Under the Old Covenant, there was appointed a mediator between God and Man, the High Priest, who alone entered the Holiest of Holies. Thus could the people take their sins to the High Priest, to intercede on their behalf, with sacrificial blood. Christ Himself, by offering his own blood, entered the Holiest of Holies in a way far more excellent by entering the Throne Room of Heaven. The comparison is complete ,and as the sinners of old could seek recourse from the High Priest of old, the sinners within our Church can seek recourse from the Most High Priest, Christ Jesus, without need for any other mediator (Heb 9:11-15). That mediatorship belongs to Christ alone who gives us access to the Father (Eph 2:18). Certainly Mary can be an additional intercessor of prayer as I may pray for you, but Montfort is wrong to say that it is necessary or even that such prayer without an additional mediator is ineffective.

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

I don't know about anyone else, but I am a GREAT SINNER and I know Jesus loves me dispite, but that also means that I am flawed and my love for Him is distorted.

Do not think that His Patience is any way overcome by your sin (1 Tim 1:15-16). He will hear you. The Lord who directs your heart (2 Thess 3:5) also dwells in your heart (Eph 3:17). You are a son of God through the adoption by the Spirit (Rom 8:15), the same sonship that we share with our Savior, Christ Jesus (Eph 1:5), so do not think for a second that your Father in Heaven will not hear you because you aren't perfect.

Pray alongside Mary if you wish, but you have all things in Christ already, and only need to speak and He will hear you.

[FCEGM]

Originally Posted by losh14

. . . Certainly Mary can be an additional intercessor of prayer as I may pray for you, . . . .

The Church teaches that Mary IS an intercessor of prayer; whether we advert to her or not (or are aware of her intercession or not) is another thing. Your not being desposed towards her keeps you with these hesitancies of expression in her regard.

Pray alongside Mary if you wish, but you have all things in Christ already, and only need to speak and He will hear you.

After all the "ink" on these pages has been spilt, it seems your whole exercise here comes down to presuming to instruct us how your non-Marian approach is better than the approach the Church urges upon the faithful in regard to the Blessed Mother. You cannot comprehend what Pope Paul VI expressed in Marialus Cultus: "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship", or the "Totus Tuus" of John Paul II.

Marialus Cultus

[De_Montfort]

The link was broken

MARIALIS CULTUS

"The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church's genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called "Christian," because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God's redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan."

Good find FCEGM, when I have more time I will read the whole thing.

The problem in this thread is there is an approach of trying to seperate Christ from Mary which can't be done.
There are different paths to Christ, my choice is the easiest, and most perfect way which is Mary.
God chooses to do everything through Mary. It is a path laid out by God himself.
Also in the Old Testament the Queen Mother is metioned at least 30 times and stories of Her intercession with the King, and that the King will refuse her nothing.

[FCEGM]

Originally Posted by De_Montfort

The link was broken

MARIALIS CULTUS

Good find FCEGM, when I have more time I will read the whole thing.

Thank you for posting a good link.

The problem in this thread is there is an approach of trying to seperate Christ from Mary which can't be done.

Yes.

There are different paths to Christ, my choice is the easiest, and most perfect way which is Mary.

Yes. (I'm preparing for my consecration on the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.)

[nickybr38]

Originally Posted by FCEGM

Thank you for posting a good link.



Yes.



Yes. (I'm preparing for my consecration on the Feast of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.)

I am a faithful Catholic and I ask Mary to pray for me quite often...

However...

don't you think it's silly that we go to Mary to get to Christ who is our gate to the Father? Doesn't that seem like taking two steps and forcing them into three?

I can TOTALLY understand why Protestants hear stuff like this and scoff... because it sounds like you're making things complicated and/or like you're insinuating MARY is the gate, rather then Christ... who DIED so we could go TO Him...

*sigh*

I know that you find your peace in Mary but please don't look down on your brothers and sisters who choose to go straight to Christ. Neither way is more 'perfect' then the other. In reality, how we get to God doesn't matter, so long as we get to Him.