Where did the anti-family vibe come from?

[Zelie Louis]

Lets all please remember our charity to one another or this thread will be closed. Thanks for your cooperation and participation.

[akela135]

Originally Posted by NightHawk2005

What about those of us who do not see it as disposable? I'm a 24-year-old male who has remained a virgin and will only marry one person ever in my life. It's a lifelong commitment to me, and I've always seen it that way. I get one person to love and unite with for eternity.

Yet you think my eventual marriage will be unloving because of my lack of openness to have children. Very ridiculous assertion on your part.

I would tell you, "you are still young" but as I'm only 23 I don't really have a leg to stand on! However, assuming the woman you love is 25 then you could have another 25 years of fertility ahead of you. While you could enter into marriage agreeing to never have children, what if in 5 years your wife comes to you and says she'd really like to have a baby. Would you consider having one for her? Even if your own feelings never change. Would you deny the woman you loved a baby of her own simply because you did not want one?

Perhaps you convince your wife that a baby isn't good for either of you and she agrees but in five more years (or ten from present) she says she still would really like to have a baby, what then? You might say niether of you will ever change your minds, but how can you really know?

I try to remember that if I have 27 more years of fertility ahead of me and I'm only 23 now, that there is more years ahead than I've even been alive. I've changed a lot over the years and know too many people who say they are completely different people at 30 than they were at 20. Right now I can't imagine ever changing my mind, but if I asked my 10 year old self is she would want to kiss a boy she would have said "Eww! boys have cuties!"

Anyways, I've seen successful secular marriages that don't involve children by choice, so I agree that they can be very loving. However, you really are looking at the rest of your life with the woman you love and that is a long time! You can't know how the future will change you or her so you should talk about what you would do in the case of either of you changes your minds.

[Dan Daly]

Originally Posted by NightHawk2005

There is no evidence of that. My marriage will be very loving without openness to children. Being open to children is absolutely not necessary for a marriage to be loving. The Church might say it's necessary to win their approval, but to be loving? There is no evidence for that whatsoever, and there never will be.

What is the Church? A group of men who make up whatever rules they feel like?

Or is it the Bride of Christ? Is there as the Catholic Church teaches, no salvation outside of the Church of Christ? I believe so.

In that case, purposely setting oneself against the Church is a grave error, and pulling a spouse along with you and jeopardizing their salvation is not what I would consider a loving thing to do.

Pax

[NightHawk2005]

Originally Posted by akela135

I would tell you, "you are still young" but as I'm only 23 I don't really have a leg to stand on! However, assuming the woman you love is 25 then you could have another 25 years of fertility ahead of you. While you could enter into marriage agreeing to never have children, what if in 5 years your wife comes to you and says she'd really like to have a baby. Would you consider having one for her? Even if your own feelings never change. Would you deny the woman you loved a baby of her own simply because you did not want one?

Perhaps you convince your wife that a baby isn't good for either of you and she agrees but in five more years (or ten from present) she says she still would really like to have a baby, what then? You might say niether of you will ever change your minds, but how can you really know?

I try to remember that if I have 27 more years of fertility ahead of me and I'm only 23 now, that there is more years ahead than I've even been alive. I've changed a lot over the years and know too many people who say they are completely different people at 30 than they were at 20. Right now I can't imagine ever changing my mind, but if I asked my 10 year old self is she would want to kiss a boy she would have said "Eww! boys have cuties!"

Anyways, I've seen successful secular marriages that don't involve children by choice, so I agree that they can be very loving. However, you really are looking at the rest of your life with the woman you love and that is a long time! You can't know how the future will change you or her so you should talk about what you would do in the case of either of you changes your minds.

No, I would not have a baby, but it's not something I have to worry about because she has enough experience with children to know that she never wants to be a mother. I didn't convince her of a thing, she made that decision on her own. In fact, she routinely dots my Facebook profile with things like "Every time I see a cute child, I remind myself how awesome it is to sleep through the night."

Besides, in five years, it'll be too late. When we get engaged, I'm getting a vasectomy. I never thought I'd be able to do that, and I initially planned to wait to have sex until my eventual wife was post-menopause, and she even loved me enough to be fine with that. But as the years have gone by, I have seen my very Catholic uncle get a vasectomy and the Church stray from its own teachings (changing the Nicene Creed? Seriously?) and realized that a vasectomy is a viable option for me.

I don't have 25 years left of fertility, I've got three, and I won't be sexually active during those three years. My eventual wife (who isn't Catholic) loves me enough that before I decided that I could get a vasectomy, she was willing to get her tubes tied without my knowledge to eliminate the possibility of it being my sin. I'm lucky to have her.

I know you didn't say I'll change my mind in five years, but I've heard that before and it's quite annoying to hear, really. Why when someone young says they don't want kids do people think, "Oh, you'll change your mind in a few years." How would they like it if I went up to a new mother and said, "You'll change your mind about wanting to be a mother in five years"?

[estesbob]

Originally Posted by LightBound

What? We're talking about Proverbs 31, verses 10-31:



Commonly known as the Proverbs 31 woman- not Jezebel

Thats good-Jezebel would not have been a good example:

7 Jezebel his wife said, “Is this how you act as king over Israel? Get up and eat! Cheer up. I’ll get you the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.”

8 So she wrote letters in Ahab’s name, placed his seal on them, and sent them to the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth’s city with him. 9 In those letters she wrote:

“Proclaim a day of fasting and seat Naboth in a prominent place among the people. 10 But seat two scoundrels opposite him and have them bring charges that he has cursed both God and the king. Then take him out and stone him to death.”

11 So the elders and nobles who lived in Naboth’s city did as Jezebel directed in the letters she had written to them. 12 They proclaimed a fast and seated Naboth in a prominent place among the people. 13 Then two scoundrels came and sat opposite him and brought charges against Naboth before the people, saying, “Naboth has cursed both God and the king.” So they took him outside the city and stoned him to death. 14 Then they sent word to Jezebel: “Naboth has been stoned to death.”

15 As soon as Jezebel heard that Naboth had been stoned to death, she said to Ahab, “Get up and take possession of the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite that he refused to sell you. He is no longer alive, but dead.” 16 When Ahab heard that Naboth was dead, he got up and went down to take possession of Naboth’s vineyard.

[Dan Daly]

Originally Posted by NightHawk2005

No, I would not have a baby, but it's not something I have to worry about because she has enough experience with children to know that she never wants to be a mother. I didn't convince her of a thing, she made that decision on her own. In fact, she routinely dots my Facebook profile with things like "Every time I see a cute child, I remind myself how awesome it is to sleep through the night."

Besides, in five years, it'll be too late. When we get engaged, I'm getting a vasectomy. I never thought I'd be able to do that, and I initially planned to wait to have sex until my eventual wife was post-menopause, and she even loved me enough to be fine with that. But as the years have gone by, I have seen my very Catholic uncle get a vasectomy and the Church stray from its own teachings (changing the Nicene Creed? Seriously?) and realized that a vasectomy is a viable option for me.

I don't have 25 years left of fertility, I've got three, and I won't be sexually active during those three years. My eventual wife (who isn't Catholic) loves me enough that before I decided that I could get a vasectomy, she was willing to get her tubes tied without my knowledge to eliminate the possibility of it being my sin. I'm lucky to have her.

I know you didn't say I'll change my mind in five years, but I've heard that before and it's quite annoying to hear, really. Why when someone young says they don't want kids do people think, "Oh, you'll change your mind in a few years." How would they like it if I went up to a new mother and said, "You'll change your mind about wanting to be a mother in five years"?

From Casti Connubii:

55. Small wonder, therefore, if Holy Writ bears witness that the Divine Majesty regards with greatest detestation this horrible crime and at times has punished it with death. As St. Augustine notes, "Intercourse even with one's legitimate wife is unlawful and wicked where the conception of the offspring is prevented. Onan, the son of Juda, did this and the Lord killed him for it."[45]

56. Since, therefore, openly departing from the uninterrupted Christian tradition some recently have judged it possible solemnly to declare another doctrine regarding this question, the Catholic Church, to whom God has entrusted the defense of the integrity and purity of morals, standing erect in the midst of the moral ruin which surrounds her, in order that she may preserve the chastity of the nuptial union from being defiled by this foul stain, raises her voice in token of her divine ambassadorship and through Our mouth proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin.

From Humanae Vitae:

14. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)

From Evangelium Vitae:

It is therefore morally unacceptable to encourage, let alone impose, the use of methods such as contraception, sterilization and abortion in order to regulate births.

From the CCC:

In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil:159

If you believe sterilization is a valid option for a Catholic, or for anybody else, then you are mistaken. Yes, you have a duty to follow your conscience. You also have a duty to inform your conscience with the truth.

Pax

[The Bucket]

We get it NightHawk. You hate kids and clearly you hate the Church's teachings on love and the meaning of sexuality. You have yet to make a single post not related to how much you hate children and how much you think the Church is wrong about sex and love. You can stop trolling now.

[NightHawk2005]

I missed where posting about the topics that matter to you constituted as trolling.

[akela135]

Originally Posted by NightHawk2005

No, I would not have a baby, but it's not something I have to worry about because she has enough experience with children to know that she never wants to be a mother. I didn't convince her of a thing, she made that decision on her own. In fact, she routinely dots my Facebook profile with things like "Every time I see a cute child, I remind myself how awesome it is to sleep through the night."

Besides, in five years, it'll be too late. When we get engaged, I'm getting a vasectomy. I never thought I'd be able to do that, and I initially planned to wait to have sex until my eventual wife was post-menopause, and she even loved me enough to be fine with that. But as the years have gone by, I have seen my very Catholic uncle get a vasectomy and the Church stray from its own teachings (changing the Nicene Creed? Seriously?) and realized that a vasectomy is a viable option for me.

I don't have 25 years left of fertility, I've got three, and I won't be sexually active during those three years. My eventual wife (who isn't Catholic) loves me enough that before I decided that I could get a vasectomy, she was willing to get her tubes tied without my knowledge to eliminate the possibility of it being my sin. I'm lucky to have her.

I know you didn't say I'll change my mind in five years, but I've heard that before and it's quite annoying to hear, really. Why when someone young says they don't want kids do people think, "Oh, you'll change your mind in a few years." How would they like it if I went up to a new mother and said, "You'll change your mind about wanting to be a mother in five years"?

I get it. I do. I have never successfully interacted near an infant or any child under about 8 in my entire life and I don't even find them cute. I can't imagine ever wanting to have one. I have never wanted a child once in all my years of life. However no one said being Catholic would be easy and when faced with my options of having a faithful Catholic marriage with a strong possibility of children or having to say good bye to the man I love and live alone I struggled very hard with what would be the right choice. I chose to get married. That doesn't mean I suddenly discovered I want 10 kids and want them tomorrow. It means I still want 0 and I still can't imagine even having 1. I do want to trust in God and follow him to the best of my ability though. Which means remaining open to having children if he should send them my way.

Also, in rare cases vasectomies can reverse themselves and unplanned pregnancies can occur. The statistical likelyhood of this happening is probably about the same as winning a new car, but it does happen. How would you and your wife deal with an unplanned pregnancy? Would you have an abortion? Would you give the child up for adoption? Would you raise it? These are questions you still need to ask and discuss at the very least.

I'm sorry if I sounded rude to you, I just want you to know that you aren't alone in feeling this way. I think this is a common feeling but as Catholics we are called to rise above our weaknesses and follow Christ. I know it would be wonderful if there was some loophole that you could find, but in the end it really will come down to a choice of following the church teaching, even though it is hard, or going against the church teaching, to satisfy yourself.

[Portrait]

Originally Posted by LightBound

Thousands of years ago, there was a pretty savvy businesswoman who managed her household, had the knowledge to make a good purchase (a vineyard comes to mind) and a good sale (her fine cloths), all without her husband holding her "meek little hand" and telling her what to say or do. In fact, her character, her work and her business sense brought her husband honor. I'm sure he wouldn't have been so honorable to those in their community if he had a timid little mouse that was helpless without his constant micromanaging. For more on this admirable lady, see Proverbs Chapter 31

Dear LightBound,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

What I think is important for us to observe with the 'worthy woman' of this lovely chapter, is that she is a jolly industrious soul who recommends herself to her husband's esteem and affection. A good woman, dear friend, if she enters into holy wedlock, will surely be a good wife who will make it her business to 'please her husband' (I Cor. 7: 34). Thus a truly virtuous woman will not have to struggle too hard to submit herself to her husband and she will be desirous to know his mind, that she may accommodate herself to it. Moreover, as a woman of faith she will have no trouble in recognising that God gave authority to the husband over the wife (Gen. 3: 16) and that her will and desire is to be subject to his will - "The husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church" (see I Cor. 11: 3; 14: 34; Eph. 5: 22-24; I Tim. 2: 11, 12; Titus 2: 5; St. Pet. 3: 1,5,6). Yet, it is important to see that that there is a holiness in the subjection of the wife to the husband, for it typifies the Church's loving obedience to Christ (Eph. 5: 24).

It says in this passage that "The heart of her husband trusts in her..." (Prov. 31: 11). This worthy woman, dear friend, conducts herself in such a manner that her husband may repose his entire confidence in her. Thus he trusts in her chastity, which, of course, she never gave him the least occasion to suspect in the first place. She is not by nature morose and moody, but modest and grave, especially in the matter of her attire, which but reflects a mind fixed upon heavenly things (Col. 3: 2). This woman has all the marks of virtue, both in her countenance and her conduct and so it is hardly surprising that "her husband trusts in her"; he is easy and so makes her so as well. He trusts her conduct implicitly and knows that she will speak in the company of others with prudence and discretion, so as not to damage his good name or occasion him any reproach. Moreover, he trusts her in her fidelity to all his interests, knowing that she will never betray his good guidance nor have her sights on anything else separate from that of his family. She is a good loyal wife that is fit to be trusted and he is a good loyal husband that will happily leave the management of all domestic affairs to her.

Finally, dear friend, we read here that the husband "will have no lack of gain" (Prov. 31: 11). She manages her husband's affairs in such a manner that he never wants for anything; there is always food on the table and clothing upon the backs of the family members. Is it any wonder that such a blessed man delights in such a woman? Of course he does not envy his more affluent neighbours and friends, for he needs not their wealth for he has all that he requires in his virtuous loving wife. In the sad and confusing times in which our lot is cast, happy indeed the pious couple that enjoy such domestic bliss and such satisfaction as this in each other!

Undeniably, we need woman of such virtuous calibre today to foster strong and stable family life, which in turn will surely lead to the betterment of the wider society. Forces hostile to the religion of Christ, such as radical aberrant feminism, have wrought much damage in recent times and the family, alas, has not escaped unscathed. Woman of faith need to love their husbands, not crossing them, giving them good words, and not bad ones, especially if they are out of humour for some reason; endeavouring to make them feel relaxed; providing what is necessary for them, both in sickness and in health and attending to them with diligence and tenderness when anything troubles them. In so doing, dear friend, "She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life" (Prov. 31: 12).


God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax

[Portrait]

Originally Posted by Dan Daly

From Casti Connubii:




From Humanae Vitae:



From Evangelium Vitae:



From the CCC:




If you believe sterilization is a valid option for a Catholic, or for anybody else, then you are mistaken. Yes, you have a duty to follow your conscience. You also have a duty to inform your conscience with the truth.

Pax

Dear Dan Daly,

Cordial greetings and a very good day. Jolly splendid input, old chap, keep on keeping on with your excellent contributions to the discussion.


God bless.


Warmest good wishes,



Portrait



Pax

[sharmin]

Originally Posted by mschrank

I don't care though, as some smart person said once, the best revenge is living well. I'll enjoy life with my large family. Some of that enjoyment I'm sure will take the place of a well cooked meal (I love cooking), with my family seated on my handmade furniture (a another hobby of mine). I know who I am, I need no validation from 'society' or the idiot box.

Who are you feeling a need to "seek revenge" on? I'm not sure what you mean by "the best revenge is living well"

[NightHawk2005]

Originally Posted by akela135

I get it. I do. I have never successfully interacted near an infant or any child under about 8 in my entire life and I don't even find them cute. I can't imagine ever wanting to have one. I have never wanted a child once in all my years of life. However no one said being Catholic would be easy and when faced with my options of having a faithful Catholic marriage with a strong possibility of children or having to say good bye to the man I love and live alone I struggled very hard with what would be the right choice. I chose to get married. That doesn't mean I suddenly discovered I want 10 kids and want them tomorrow. It means I still want 0 and I still can't imagine even having 1. I do want to trust in God and follow him to the best of my ability though. Which means remaining open to having children if he should send them my way.

Also, in rare cases vasectomies can reverse themselves and unplanned pregnancies can occur. The statistical likelyhood of this happening is probably about the same as winning a new car, but it does happen. How would you and your wife deal with an unplanned pregnancy? Would you have an abortion? Would you give the child up for adoption? Would you raise it? These are questions you still need to ask and discuss at the very least.

I'm sorry if I sounded rude to you, I just want you to know that you aren't alone in feeling this way. I think this is a common feeling but as Catholics we are called to rise above our weaknesses and follow Christ. I know it would be wonderful if there was some loophole that you could find, but in the end it really will come down to a choice of following the church teaching, even though it is hard, or going against the church teaching, to satisfy yourself.

No, you were fine. To answer your question, I'd place the child up for adoption if that unfortunate event were to occur. I'm aware that a vasectomy can reverse itself, and this is one reason I plan to get it when I get engaged, rather than when I get married, so that I can confirm long before my wedding that everything is as it should be. It's definitely something I plan to keep a close eye on once it happens.

[hsmomforlife]

I was just reading about problems within the Catholic Church in America and the current issues with the Leadership Conference of Women Religious and when I read Msgr. Barreiro's comments, it made me think of the current discussion here, so I thought I would share:

"In cases like that of Sr. Farley he said:


A person who calls herself a Catholic has to write and teach in accordance with the teaching of the Church. To do otherwise is to defy not only Catholic teaching, but logic.”

To clarify, if you are a member of a club, and you want to remain the member of that club, you have to follow the rules, if you don’t, you’re not being “suppressed” if the club asks you to leave. Similarly, If you pretend to play soccer, you have to follow the rules of soccer, otherwise you are not playing the same game. You invent your own game, and you play in accordance with the rules of the new game, that could be called soccer 2. But it’s no longer soccer; it’s a different game.

If…they want to follow their own rules, fine, but it’s not Catholicism; it’s a different religion. We don’t pretend to use force against different religions, but they have to be honest and not call themselves what they are not."

The whole article can be read here:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sam...tholics-outrag
Just some interesting food for thought...

[hsmomforlife]

Originally Posted by akela135

I get it. I do. I have never successfully interacted near an infant or any child under about 8 in my entire life and I don't even find them cute. I can't imagine ever wanting to have one. I have never wanted a child once in all my years of life. However no one said being Catholic would be easy and when faced with my options of having a faithful Catholic marriage with a strong possibility of children or having to say good bye to the man I love and live alone I struggled very hard with what would be the right choice. I chose to get married. That doesn't mean I suddenly discovered I want 10 kids and want them tomorrow. It means I still want 0 and I still can't imagine even having 1. I do want to trust in God and follow him to the best of my ability though. Which means remaining open to having children if he should send them my way.

Also, in rare cases vasectomies can reverse themselves and unplanned pregnancies can occur. The statistical likelyhood of this happening is probably about the same as winning a new car, but it does happen. How would you and your wife deal with an unplanned pregnancy? Would you have an abortion? Would you give the child up for adoption? Would you raise it? These are questions you still need to ask and discuss at the very least.

I'm sorry if I sounded rude to you, I just want you to know that you aren't alone in feeling this way. I think this is a common feeling but as Catholics we are called to rise above our weaknesses and follow Christ. I know it would be wonderful if there was some loophole that you could find, but in the end it really will come down to a choice of following the church teaching, even though it is hard, or going against the church teaching, to satisfy yourself.

When I was 35, I had never even talked with a person with Down syndrome. I never interacted or had any special affinity for people with any type of special needs. At the age of 35 and two months, I gave birth to a little girl with Down syndrome...
Fast forward 9 years and I am an avid advocate, a staunch 'inclusionist', and a very vocal believer in the abilities of people with Down syndrome. Did I mention that I started an organization for kids with Down syndrome and their families?
Don't underestimate yourself nor the power of God's Grace to redirect your life...IF you are open to it.
It's amazing what the Grace of God will do for you when He decides it is right for your life, so don't close yourself off completely to His plan for you, by deciding your fertility.

I never WANTED any of what I described above,...but I am such a different person because of it, that I am grateful to God for it! I wouldn't trade it for anything!