RCIA Candidates leaving mass and not getting graces of final blessing - Page 3

taylormcbee · #31 Jun 21, '12, 11:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neofight

What you witnessed was probably the ancient practice of "dismissal" during the scrutinies. Your question though is a good one which would be better answered by an apologetic...I think once you get an answer from someone more articulate than me and the first two posters may find out they are being hasty in their assessment and may understand the ritual.

The scrutines are the 3rd 4th and 5th sunday of lent i witnessed this durring september so not part of the scrutines

**1ke** · #32 Jun 21, '12, 11:25 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylormcbee

The scrutines are the 3rd 4th and 5th sunday of lent i witnessed this durring september so not part of the scrutines

Dismissal of catechumens is not only during the scrutinies.

taylormcbee · #33 Jun 21, '12, 1:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ke

Dismissal of catechumens is not only during the scrutinies.

I know if it was cathechumens it was candidates as well and a poster had suggested it was becuase of the scuritnes and i was saying it wasn't

MSSheBear · #34 Jun 21, '12, 8:27 pm

When I was in the RCIA we had a dismissal at a specific Mass between the end of October until the Easter Vigil. The dismissed included any person in RCIA who could not take Communion and this included people who had been baptized as Catholics.

We went up to the front of the church for the dismissal and then left for our Breaking the Word session. It was nerve-wracking and I ended up improving my wardrobe considerably.

The benefits included not having to deal with not being able to go up for Communion and being able to ask silly questions during the session.

The disadvantage was that I missed part of the Mass and lost familiarity with it until I started going to Daily Mass a couple times of week. So I don't see dismissal as bad but advantageous.

That was my experience in RCIA but I have no profound theological comment.

tafan · #35 Jun 22, '12, 7:39 am

I consider the dismissal a very bad idea, for both catechumens and candidates. Part of the Church's tradition? Don't you have to go back a long ways to show that? And the early church did lots of stuff we would not find suitable now. It smacks of ancientism. Heck, if that is the argument, why don't we do away with private confesssions?

My experience is the Breaking Open of the Word is poorly done, lead by lay people who are not educated well enough to lead a Catholic bible study, and often times encourages personal interpretation of the Bible along the lines of protestantism.

Where is this argument coming from that the only thing to be gained by attending mass for the RCIA members is the final blessing? Come now, do we all think we don't receive any graces from the mass if we don't go to communion?
The whole dismissal thing makes it seem like the mass is not important if we don't go to communion. Certainly doesn't instill the habit of going to mass even when we can't go to communion in the future.

ConstantineTG · #36 Jun 22, '12, 7:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dhugz

Its useless to attend Mass if they leave in the middle of it. Mass is the highest form of worship.

The Early Church disagrees with this viewpoint. And I will take what they have to say about it over anyone else today.

Also regarding the thread title, when Catechumens are dismissed they are also given a blessing. So they don't miss on any blessing at the end of Mass.

Joannm · #37 Jun 23, '12, 2:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafan

I

My experience is the Breaking Open of the Word is poorly done, lead by lay people who are not educated well enough to lead a Catholic bible study, and often times encourages personal interpretation of the Bible along the lines of protestantism.

.

Breaking open the word is not bible study. An while it may appear to be personal interpretation what breaking open the word does is to help the catechumens to apply the readings to their own life. They come to discover their relationship with Jesus through the scriptures. If we don't appropriate the scriptures to our own lives then it is just an academic endeavor. I have studied scripture and can repeat what the CHurch teaches about a passage, but if I can't apply it to my life and my personal situations then what good does it do me? The Word is alive and speaks to each of us in different ways. That's not personal interpretation, it's making it alive in my life.

Listen to two different priests homilies. They could be as different as night and day, with each picking up on different aspects of the text and how it relates to the lives of the assembly or even to his own life.

In all my years doing RCIA I have found that it is during the Breaking Open the Word that the real conversion takes place. It is there that they discover Jesus working in their lives.

Newbie2 · #38 Jun 23, '12, 8:21 pm

IMHO, the notion of the RCIA candidates somehow "missing something" i.e. a measure of grace, borders on being very close to the notion of "cheap grace". Just because they may not be present for that final blessing does not mean they are missing something.

Quite to the contrary, they receive a measure of grace simply through their participation in the RCIA process. It's not as though who receives what measure of what kind of grace is particularly important; grace is not a measurable or quantifiable "substance".

tafan · #39 Jun 24, '12, 5:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

IMHO, the notion of the RCIA candidates somehow "missing something" i.e. a measure of grace, borders on being very close to the notion of "cheap grace". Just because they may not be present for that final blessing does not mean they are missing something.

Quite to the contrary, they receive a measure of grace simply through their participation in the RCIA process. It's not as though who receives what measure of what kind of grace is particularly important; grace is not a measurable or quantifiable "substance".

I could not disagree more. One obtains graces by attending mass, and not just by receiving communion or the final blessing.
Mass is important. We are required to go even when we cannot receive communion. If it is that important to us, why just kick people out who are already there? It is really dumb IMO.

ConstantineTG · #40 Jun 24, '12, 6:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newbie2

IMHO, the notion of the RCIA candidates somehow "missing something" i.e. a measure of grace, borders on being very close to the notion of "cheap grace". Just because they may not be present for that final blessing does not mean they are missing something.

Quite to the contrary, they receive a measure of grace simply through their participation in the RCIA process. It's not as though who receives what measure of what kind of grace is particularly important; grace is not a measurable or quantifiable "substance".

Also, as I mentioned, the dismissal should have its own rite of blessing. So really, they don't miss out on anything no matter how you look at it.

Joannm · #41 Jun 25, '12, 7:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by tafan

I could not disagree more. One obtains graces by attending mass, and not just by receiving communion or the final blessing.
Mass is important. We are required to go even when we cannot receive communion. If it is that important to us, why just kick people out who are already there? It is really dumb IMO.

However catechumens are not obligated, they are not yet Catholic or even Christian. It is part of the process. That is why pre-Vat II the Liturgy of the Eucharist was called the Mass of the Faithful since only the baptized should be present for it. And we are not just kicking them out. They are dismissed to further reflect on the Scriptures. They are being fed on the Word. After baptism they will be also fed on the Eucharist.

Nicea325 · #42 Jun 26, '12, 1:12 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by taylormcbee

This has not happened to me yet but when i went to the first mass with my Catholic Girlfriend at her church the rcia candiates left after the homily and didn't say the creed. They went to do what they call "break open the word" and the session ended when mass ended i looked this up on that particular parrishes webiste and i was just wondering if they leave and aren't present till the end they are missing the graces of the final blessing. So this leaves me with 2 questions. why would they do that and it makes me think the graces of the final blessing do not apply to non catholics ? can someone shed some light on this for me please ?
Thanks

Here is where all the confusion comes into play with RCIA. Do they stay or do they leave? From what I heave read and studied it is good practice to have candidates remain,since by virtue of baptism,they are already part of Christ body.

Joannm · #43 Jun 27, '12, 3:22 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicea325

Here is where all the confusion comes into play with RCIA. Do they stay or do they leave? From what I heave read and studied it is good practice to have candidates remain,since by virtue of baptism,they are already part of Christ body.

This is true but we have had situations in the past where some of our candidates wanted to leave because they really didn't have any religious education at all and felt in the same boat as our catechumens. So we give them the option. Technically they should stay though. We encourage them to stay but they get a lot out of breaking open the Word.

Nicea325 · #44 Jun 27, '12, 10:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joannm

This is true but we have had situations in the past where some of our candidates wanted to leave because they really didn't have any religious education at all and felt in the same boat as our catechumens. So we give them the option. Technically they should stay though. We encourage them to stay but they get a lot out of breaking open the Word.

Indeed. I agree with you and I am very flexible. Technically it depends on how much or how little catechesis a candidate received in his or her former faith. The book I read was by an experienced RCIA Director and stated the RCIA ritual book does not specifically say one way or another,so it is up to the parish community or better the RCIA Director.

Usige · #45 Jun 27, '12, 2:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joannm

This is true but we have had situations in the past where some of our candidates wanted to leave because they really didn't have any religious education at all and felt in the same boat as our catechumens. So we give them the option. Technically they should stay though. We encourage them to stay but they get a lot out of breaking open the Word.

I have always thought that when dismissals are practiced that catecumen should be called and candidates invited to join them. The forced "banishment" of our baptized brothers and sisters is what I objected to. One RCIA director said it was inappropriate for them to stay because they hadn't received all the sacraments of initiation. I asked him why we didn't dismiss unconfirmed children and he gave me a blank look. Kinda told me that understanding of the sacrament of baptism might have been lost on him.