The disorder of homosexuality

[Elizabeth502]

Originally Posted by spencelo

if I took the time to read 20+ pages of material only to discover that my questions haven't been addressed, then I'm going to be very disappointed! I don't wish to take that chance.

Then, if you don't respect the time others have already put into answering your questions ahead of your asking them, don't expect those same people -- or even new joiners -- to respect your viewpoints and assertions. Discussions involve give as well as take.

Not only have your questions been answered on this thread, they have been answered on multiple previous CAF threads, available to you by rejecting intellectual laziness and embracing intellectual vigor, with the help of tools like Search options.

[spencelo]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502

Then, if you don't respect the time others have already put into answering your questions ahead of your asking them, don't expect those same people -- or even new joiners -- to respect your viewpoints and assertions. Discussions involve give as well as take.

Except again, I don't believe my questions have been answered -- but feel free to prove me wrong. Btw, I don't ask people to "respect" my viewpoints and assertions, but if anyone wishes to challenge them, I'd be happy to consider their arguments (or nonarguments).

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502

Not only have your questions been answered on this thread, they have been answered on multiple previous CAF threads, available to you by rejecting intellectual laziness and embracing intellectual vigor, with the help of tools like Search options.

Prove me wrong! If you don't wish to make the effort, I'll understand.

[fix]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Ah, thanks for the clarification! But in that case, the Catholic definition of "disorder" has no traction with the rest of society. Homosexuality is viewed as a disorder because, in the opinion of some, it is immoral.

The Church uses that term in a philosophical way. The attraction is not ordered toward the good. Now, whether the few, or many, accept this truth in no way changes it.

[spencelo]

Originally Posted by fix

The Church uses that term in a philosophical way. The attraction is not ordered toward the good. Now, whether the few, or many, accept this truth in no way changes it.

I'm more interested in seeing whether this so-called "truth" can be defended, in a "philosophical way."

What exactly is same-sex attraction ordered towards that is not good? What is the "good?" Is the "good" determined by God? Is the claim that same-sex attraction is not ordered towards the goods merely the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality? If so, how can the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality be defended "in a philosophical way?" Is there any good evidence that God, if he exists, disapproves of homosexuality?

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by spencelo

I'm more interested in seeing whether this so-called "truth" can be defended, in a "philosophical way."

What exactly is same-sex attraction ordered towards that is not good? What is the "good?" Is the "good" determined by God? Is the claim that same-sex attraction is not ordered towards the goods merely the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality? If so, how can the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality be defended "in a philosophical way?" Is there any good evidence that God, if he exists, disapproves of homosexuality?

Spence,

Make your bed, be careful when you cross the street, eat your spinach.....

You are dealing with a bunch of people who believe that the Church is

The Body of Christ/Christ is Head
Christ is God/man

The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages through which the manifold wisdom of God is known..

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth..

The Church says....homosexuallity is disordered.....just read what it says and that is it....there is no discussion...

be sure and brush your teeth before you go to bed....good night...

[bilop]

Originally Posted by spencelo

I'm more interested in seeing whether this so-called "truth" can be defended, in a "philosophical way."

What exactly is same-sex attraction ordered towards that is not good? What is the "good?" Is the "good" determined by God? Is the claim that same-sex attraction is not ordered towards the goods merely the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality? If so, how can the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality be defended "in a philosophical way?" Is there any good evidence that God, if he exists, disapproves of homosexuality?

The ends of sex are twofold 1) uniative - the bonding of the married couple, 2) procreative - the begetting of children. For sex to be licit it must meet both ends.

Homosexual activity fails this test because it does not involve a married couple so 1) is right out, and it can't be procreative.

Likewise:

Married sex with artificial contraception fails test 2), it is uniative but not procreative.

In vitro fertizilation fails test 1), it is procreative but not uniative.

God Bless

[spencelo]

Originally Posted by bilop

The ends of sex are twofold 1) uniative - the bonding of the married couple, 2) procreative - the begetting of children. For sex to be licit it must meet both ends.

Homosexual activity fails this test because it does not involve a married couple so 1) is right out, and it can't be procreative.

Likewise:

Married sex with artificial contraception fails test 2), it is uniative but not procreative.

In vitro fertizilation fails test 1), it is procreative but not uniative.

God Bless

Homosexuality activity can involve a married couple, because in this country, same-sex couples can get married in a number of states. Moreover, what about infertile straight couples? They seem to fail test 2).

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Homosexuality activity can involve a married couple, because in this country, same-sex couples can get married in a number of states. Moreover, what about infertile straight couples? They seem to fail test 2).

Spence,

You are comparing and contrasting beliefs as seen in what we believe to be "the Kingdom of God" with the world....if you pick up a Bible....you will read

"repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand" and that means "change your mind"=repent

You will also read "be ye not conformed to this world" and that includes what is happening in some states...so what....

St. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo in Africa....Hippo was over run by Arians as I recall....and the OHCAC survived....no Hippo...still have OHCAC...

You cannot compare the states with a Kingdom.....

[LisaA]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Homosexuality activity can involve a married couple, because in this country, same-sex couples can get married in a number of states. Moreover, what about infertile straight couples? They seem to fail test 2).

Catholicism does not recognize homosexual "marriage." Certain elements in a marriage must be present before it can be recognized by the Church. Remember Spence, we aren't here to argue that you aren't the world's greatest expert on your own opinion. You are. But your opinion does not overcome the Church's teaching.

Infertility does not mean the marriage is invalid. The couple is open to life (by not contracepting etc) and that some couples cannot conceive is not determinative.

Lisa

[Elizabeth502]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Except again, I don't believe my questions have been answered -- but feel free to prove me wrong. Btw, I don't ask people to "respect" my viewpoints and assertions, but if anyone wishes to challenge them, I'd be happy to consider their arguments (or nonarguments).

People don't tend to engage in debate posters whose viewpoints they cannot respect, due to lack of due diligence in researching the already-answered questions. So respect is key to whether you will continue to have any of your postings seriously addressed, given the ratio between the work others have put in and the amount you have put in.

Prove me wrong!

You have already been proven wrong, repeatedly. You just refuse to acknowledge having lost the battle.

[spencelo]

Originally Posted by LisaA

Catholicism does not recognize homosexual "marriage." Certain elements in a marriage must be present before it can be recognized by the Church. Remember Spence, we aren't here to argue that you aren't the world's greatest expert on your own opinion. You are. But your opinion does not overcome the Church's teaching.

Infertility does not mean the marriage is invalid. The couple is open to life (by not contracepting etc) and that some couples cannot conceive is not determinative.

Lisa

Can you provide some answers to the following questions I raised before? Here they are again: What exactly is same-sex attraction ordered towards that is not good? What is the "good?" Is the "good" determined by God? Is the claim that same-sex attraction is not ordered towards the goods merely the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality? If so, how can the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality be defended "in a philosophical way?" Is there any good evidence that God, if he exists, disapproves of homosexuality?

[spencelo]

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502

People don't tend to engage in debate posters whose viewpoints they cannot respect, due to lack of due diligence in researching the already-answered questions.

Do the Catholics on here "respect" the viewpoint that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry, that God doesn't exist, or that Catholicism extols irrationality? I suspect that many Catholics on here, including yourself, engage these viewpoints often even though they aren't "respected."

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502

So respect is key to whether you will continue to have any of your postings seriously addressed, given the ratio between the work others have put in and the amount you have put in.

Like I said before, if posters are willing to put forth arguments, I'm willing to consider them. But hunting for posts that may or may not have addressed my questions isn't something I'm gonna do. If you think my questions have been answered, quote the answers, or just answer them yourself. Stop being lazy

Originally Posted by Elizabeth502

You have already been proven wrong, repeatedly. You just refuse to acknowledge having lost the battle.

I think we may have very different notions of what "being proven wrong" means

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Can you provide some answers to the following questions I raised before? Here they are again: What exactly is same-sex attraction ordered towards that is not good? What is the "good?" Is the "good" determined by God? Is the claim that same-sex attraction is not ordered towards the goods merely the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality? If so, how can the claim that God disapproves of homosexuality be defended "in a philosophical way?" Is there any good evidence that God, if he exists, disapproves of homosexuality?

Spence,

Take them in order of importance

1. Is there any evidence that God exists?
2. Does God dissaprove of Homosexuality?
3. Is good determined by God?
4. If same sex attraction is not ordered toward good then what is the good?

OK..

Answer to number 1 review and study Aquinas proofs of God...if you don't believe in God and are not persuaded then I cannot take you to number 2, 3, 4...OK...

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by spencelo

Do the Catholics on here "respect" the viewpoint that same-sex couples should be allowed to marry, that God doesn't exist, or that Catholicism extols irrationality? I suspect that many Catholics on here, including yourself, engage these viewpoints often even though they aren't "respected."



Like I said before, if posters are willing to put forth arguments, I'm willing to consider them. But hunting for posts that may or may not have addressed my questions isn't something I'm gonna do. If you think my questions have been answered, quote the answers, or just answer them yourself. Stop being lazy





I think we may have very different notions of what "being proven wrong" means

Spence,

You appear to be frustrated. That frustration can be calmed by directing your attention to Fides et Ratio as I suggested...read an excerpt..

The world and all that happens within it, including history and the fate of peoples, are realities to be observed, analysed and assessed with all the resources of reason, but without faith ever being foreign to the process. Faith intervenes not to abolish reason's
autonomy nor to reduce its scope for action, but solely to bring the human being to understand that in these events it is the God of Israel who acts. Thus the world and the events of history cannot be understood in depth without professing faith in the God who is at work in them. Faith sharpens the inner eye, opening the mind to discover in the flux of events the workings of Providence.

I hope you understand that without Faith, Reason fails to grasp what can be learned from the OHCAC....take your time and stop resisting, listen to what you are being told...it is just a matter of time...

[Viviphilia]

What an interesting thread. I'll try to get caught up by tomorrow.