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  #1  
Old Jun 17, '12, 2:53 pm
creole54 creole54 is offline
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Default Question about the Catholic Bible

I've noticed people referring to the Catholic Bible or the Catholic edition of a Bible. I have several Catholic Bibles (DR, RSV, NAS, NJB, etc.) Some of which have 'Catholic edition' 0r CE stamped on them.

I'm wondering why Protestant Bibles aren't designated as such. I mean, the Catholic church is who safeguarded the Bible, had it translated it, kept it alive. It was initially ours. Why isn't there a Holy Bible and then a Holy Bible-PE (for protestant edition)?

I'm currently reading Where We Got the Bible-Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry Graham, and it's made me wonder why ours has this CE designation that makes it seem as though we're the ones who changed it.

Thanks...
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  #2  
Old Jun 17, '12, 3:49 pm
Jaypeeto4 Jaypeeto4 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Hi !! Good questions !!
The "CE" designation isn't because we are admitting to having "changed it."
Not at all !!

Actually, they have the CE designation on there so that YOU will know that
it contains ALL of the Deutero-Canonical works that protestant editions do not have.
Also, though Jews read the Deuterocanonicals,
Jewish scholars also do not regard the Deuterocanon as actual scripture either,
so their Bibles, the Tanakh, do not include those 7 books (though you can obtain them from Jewish publishing houses because they do read them and ARE familiar with them. My Jewish longtime friend Eve and I have had good discussions about the books of JUDITH and TOBIT, for example).

But the Church isn't admitting to having changed anything.
The Christian "Canon" of both "Testaments" has been the same, all over the church, since the 3rd century. Prior to the 3rd century, still, MOST local synods DID include the Deuterocanon as Inspired Scripture in their LOCAL lists of inspired books,
so the Catholic/Orthodox version of the Scriptures IS the historic Christian collection of Scripture.

It **was** the Reformers, who deigned, on their own personal opinions and nothing more,
to delete these books from the Christian Canon of Scripture. That is why the Council of Trent vigorously re-affirmed the traditional collection INCLUDING the DeuteroCanonical books, which the protestants were now calling, "apocrypha."
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  #3  
Old Jun 17, '12, 4:02 pm
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WoundedIcon WoundedIcon is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Translations which are primarily translated by Catholics, such as the NJB, NAB, and DRV, aren't labeled as such due to it being self-evident. The translations that you do see labeled as "Catholic Edition" are usually translations done by either all Protestants and then "reassembled" into our canon or are done by a committee that's primarily Protestant but has some Catholic and/or Orthodox members. The RSC-CE was revised by Catholic scholars, but only translated as a whole by Protestants. The NRSV-CE had three Catholics and one Orthodox on its committee.

I get where you're coming from though, it can be aggravating as a Catholic to have the Protestant canon be considered the default standard. I guess, looking at it more charitably, it's because everyone agrees that the books in that canon are inspired. But it does kind of create the impression that we added books.

I personally use the NRSV as my primary, but I think ecumenical Bible translations should go the way of the dinosaur. I mean, as Catholics we don't have a single conservative modern translation --- they're all in the vein of liberal Protestant scholarship. I honestly think each Christian group should just translate the Bible their own way. Some people think the ecumenical ones are more objective but they really aren't. They're just biased toward scholarly interpretative choices instead of traditional ones. I want a copy of the written tradition that doesn't ignore the oral tradition, but also is honest enough to not just tear through and restore things that match Tradition but most likely, on a scholarly basis, weren't actually the original readings.
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  #4  
Old Jun 17, '12, 8:50 pm
Crumpy Crumpy is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

I think everyone should have a budget in mind for different versions, depending on their needs. I have the Jewish Publication Society 1985 Tanakh, which is the Jewish Bible. I have the NIV, NAS (Ryrie Study Bible), RSV-2CE, the Ignatius Study Bible (new testament), and others. I have the Strong's Concordance based on the KJV.

Christian/Catholic Bibles give you idea that the translation of the Bible is "done." But, Jews are still working and still studying to fine tune the translations. They are sometimes polemical, to support their point of view, don't kid yourself. Truthfully, there are words in scripture, particularly the Old Testament, which occur only once in the Bible. We don't know what all of those mean; people take educated guesses.

I have the Jewish Study Bible, based on the JPS Tanakh. And, I have the Jewish Annotated New Testament, a Jewish commentary on the NSRV translation of the New Testament.

You probably don't need to go this overboard on buying different translations and editions. check on-line for what's out there.

If you knew Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, you'd not need them.

I don't think the ideal or final edition will ever be published.
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Old Jun 18, '12, 6:51 pm
Cyklist Cyklist is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

I wouldn't call the vein liberal. I would just call it modern. For example the 1966 Jerusalem Bible Standard Edition has modern scholarship and was the very first version that made us of the DSS (in Is), it's one of the very few ecumenical translations, it's in between Catholic and Protestant, for example it doesn't support Transubstantation. It's not more liberal than the Confraternity Version that was issued at approximately that time.

There is NO difference in the text, between the NRSV-CE and the NRSV. The ONLY reason it's called -CE, is because the Deuterocanonicals are dispersed in between the other OT books, instead of collected separately between the OT and the NT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoundedIcon View Post
The NRSV-CE had three Catholics and one Orthodox on its committee.
[...]
I personally use the NRSV as my primary, but I think ecumenical Bible translations should go the way of the dinosaur. I mean, as Catholics we don't have a single conservative modern translation --- they're all in the vein of liberal Protestant scholarship.
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  #6  
Old Jun 19, '12, 11:19 pm
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by creole54 View Post
I've noticed people referring to the Catholic Bible or the Catholic edition of a Bible. I have several Catholic Bibles (DR, RSV, NAS, NJB, etc.) Some of which have 'Catholic edition' 0r CE stamped on them.

I'm wondering why Protestant Bibles aren't designated as such. I mean, the Catholic church is who safeguarded the Bible, had it translated it, kept it alive. It was initially ours. Why isn't there a Holy Bible and then a Holy Bible-PE (for protestant edition)?

I'm currently reading Where We Got the Bible-Our Debt to the Catholic Church by Henry Graham, and it's made me wonder why ours has this CE designation that makes it seem as though we're the ones who changed it.

Thanks...
Personally I think it has more to do with the fact that Protestants were (and are) much more active in the Bible publishing business than Catholics.

One of the things that the Protestant ideal of sola scriptura (as interpreted by 18th-19th century evangelicalism) brought us is the idea that the Bible is the cure for all of life's problems, a divine manual of answers for all questions. The logical conclusion then is that the Bible - usually taken to mean only the 'pure' text with no note or comment; hey, Scripture interprets itself, doesn't it? - must get into the hands of as many people as possible. This so-called 'Puritanic biblicism' gave rise to Bible societies and groups like the Gideons, which are all committed to saving society by taking the Word out to the public by producing new translations and publishing and distributing Bibles or whatnot. The end result of all this, of course, is the highly-successful* (admittedly Protestant-dominated) modern Bible publishing industry.

* The irony is, that while biblical literacy is terribly low today (even among self-professed 'Bible Christians'), Bible sales are rising. So I'd recommend anyone who wants to engage in a highly-lucrative business to crank out some Bibles.
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  #7  
Old Jun 26, '12, 4:46 pm
creole54 creole54 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Quote:
The irony is, that while biblical literacy is terribly low today (even among self-professed 'Bible Christians'), Bible sales are rising. So I'd recommend anyone who wants to engage in a highly-lucrative business to crank out some Bibles.

Well that's really weird! Why are sales rising? And why is literacy conversely falling?
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  #8  
Old Jun 27, '12, 5:39 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

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Originally Posted by creole54 View Post
Well that's really weird! Why are sales rising? And why is literacy conversely falling?
A guy named Timothy Beal wrote a book with a slightly-misleading title The Rise and Fall of the Bible which attempts to investigate this odd phenomenon. Just to give you an idea about how much money Bible publishing makes nowadays, I quote him:
The biggest Bible publishers in this highly competitive business guard their sales data closely, but reliable industry sources estimate that 2007 saw about 25 million Bibles sold, generating revenues of about $770 million in the United States alone. That was an increase of more than 26 percent since 2005, which saw U.S. sales of about $609 million. In fact, the Bible-publishing business has been enjoying a healthy compounded growth rate of close to 10 percent per year for several years. Even during the high point of economic crisis in late 2008, when other book sales were hurting badly, Bible sales continued to boom, with an estimated $823.5 million that year. Indeed, Bible publishing tends to thrive during times of war and financial disaster. Although it’s too early to know for sure as I write, it may well turn out that the latest economic bust will be another boom time for Bible business.
He is of the opinion that this oxymoron of high Bible sales and low biblical literacy could be attributed partly to 'biblical consumerism' replacing biblical literacy:
Could it be that biblical literacy is being replaced by biblical consumerism? In today’s consumer culture, we are what we buy, wear, and carry. We identify ourselves by our patterns of consumer choices, by the market niches we buy into. It’s gone beyond that post-Cartesian proof of existence, “I shop, therefore I am.” Today, it’s closer to “I shop for what I am.” The culture industry makes and markets identities. I want to be outdoorsy, so I buy a lot of Gore-Tex, some “Life is good” shirts, and a Yakima rack for my Subaru. High school and college students identify the cultures on different campuses by brands: this school is very Hollister; that one’s more American Apparel.
At the same time, we consumers are convinced that the shortest route to self-improvement is through new products. Products change lives, right? My big New Year’s resolution might be to become an organized person. So the first thing I do is go to the home store and buy a bunch of plastic boxes. Never mind the empty ones in my basement that I bought a year ago.
Or say that I want to strengthen my identity as a Christian and grow deeper in my faith. I want a more God-centered life. I want to be “in the Word.” I feel like I should be reading the Bible a lot more than I do. After all, like most people, I believe that the Bible is God’s Word, that it’s totally correct in all of its teachings, and that it holds the answers to all of life’s most basic questions. So what do I do? Buy a Bible. Or, more likely, buy another Bible. A marketing executive at a major evangelical publishing company told me that, according to their research, the average Christian household owns nine Bibles and purchases at least one new Bible every year.
The funny thing is this. Many people (especially Christians) buy a Bible, but apparently relatively few ever actually get the guts to read through it. Beal attributes it to the fact that the 'cultural image' of the Bible as this self-explaining "book of clearly-defined solutions" is not what people see when they crack open its pages. Let's be honest: far from being a book of ready-made, black and white answers, the Bible is really a library of endless questions upon questions and a fount of ambiguity and ostensive 'contradictions', many of them not so easy to reconcile at first glance. (As a Catholic, this is where I can't help but grin at the Protestant - more specifically ex-evangelical - Beal pointing out something the Church knew all along: Scripture never pretends to interpret itself or be easy to understand. ) Confronted with this, readers are thus discouraged from going any deeper. They don't feel that this Bible gives them what they expect - they go off and buy another one, rinse and repeat.

This is really what the modern Bible publishing business gets into: it knows that there is a huge market of people who hold this cultural stereotype of the Bible and want to experience it for themselves. This is why there are countless Bibles of every size and shape: different translations, different editions, different media. A quick look through Bible catalogues show that a variety of items are all being marketed as "the Bible," many equipped with different aids that purport to speak for and supplement the Text but in most cases practically supplanting them. These 'values-added' Bibles help give the public a feel of 'reading' the Bible without being confronted by the actual text itself: these supplements are often designed to grab the reader's attention, effectively becoming the Scripture in place of the Scriptures.
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  #9  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:10 pm
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Patrick,
Quote:
As a Catholic, this is where I can't help but grin at the Protestant - more specifically ex-evangelical - Beal pointing out something the Church knew all along: Scripture never pretends to interpret itself or be easy to understand
Westminister Confession:
Quote:
7. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all: p yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.q
(p) 2 Pet 3:16
(q) Ps 119:105,130; Deut 29:29; Deut 30:10-14; Acts 17:11
We don't claim it's all plain, but the essentials are..

Lincs
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  #10  
Old Jun 28, '12, 12:35 am
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po18guy po18guy is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Quote:
Originally Posted by creole54 View Post
Well that's really weird! Why are sales rising? And why is literacy conversely falling?
Some protestant ecclesial communities tend to focus on bits and pieces of scripture - those which agree with their doctrines. Thus, knowledge of the remainder of the abbreviated bible they possess can be limited. The Apostolic Churches (Catholic and Orthodox) can safely rely upon the entirety of the scriptures in support of their doctrines.

OK, here I go being provocative again. As to the Westminster Confession, Christians live on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God - not just those we can understand. Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4. Our Lord Jesus did not come that we might have sufficient life, but life in abundance John 10:10.

Last edited by po18guy; Jun 28, '12 at 12:49 am.
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Old Jun 28, '12, 12:35 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

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Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
Patrick,


Westminister Confession:

We don't claim it's all plain, but the essentials are..

Lincs
Just one question. Do all Protestants acknowledge the Westminster Confession?
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Old Jun 30, '12, 5:31 am
creole54 creole54 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

Patrick, thank you for that explanation. that was very enlightening and, unfortunately, I see myself in many of those ideas.

Quote:
The funny thing is this. Many people (especially Christians) buy a Bible, but apparently relatively few ever actually get the guts to read through it. Beal attributes it to the fact that the 'cultural image' of the Bible as this self-explaining "book of clearly-defined solutions" is not what people see when they crack open its pages. Let's be honest: far from being a book of ready-made, black and white answers, the Bible is really a library of endless questions upon questions and a fount of ambiguity and ostensive 'contradictions', many of them not so easy to reconcile at first glance. (As a Catholic, this is where I can't help but grin at the Protestant - more specifically ex-evangelical - Beal pointing out something the Church knew all along: Scripture never pretends to interpret itself or be easy to understand. ) Confronted with this, readers are thus discouraged from going any deeper. They don't feel that this Bible gives them what they expect - they go off and buy another one, rinse and repeat.
Hooooo-boy...does this describe me, or what? At least, the old me. A couple of really good scripture study guides and involvement in an enlightening study group is helping to knock this habit down. I'm embarrassed to say how many Bibles I have in my house, but let's just say the 'average of nine' makes me feel a little bit better.
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Old Jun 30, '12, 7:18 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

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Originally Posted by Lincoln7 View Post
Patrick,


Westminister Confession:

We don't claim it's all plain, but the essentials are..

Lincs
I would add just this: I'm sure you pretty much know that there is a difference between the classic interpretation of sola scriptura and a more extreme interpretation of the same (what some would call rather confusingly solo scriptura) in some denominations. It is really the latter idea that I'm going with here.
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Old Jun 30, '12, 7:22 am
patrick457 patrick457 is offline
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Default Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

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Originally Posted by creole54 View Post
Patrick, thank you for that explanation. that was very enlightening and, unfortunately, I see myself in many of those ideas.



Hooooo-boy...does this describe me, or what? At least, the old me. A couple of really good scripture study guides and involvement in an enlightening study group is helping to knock this habit down. I'm embarrassed to say how many Bibles I have in my house, but let's just say the 'average of nine' makes me feel a little bit better.
Don't worry, we've got three hard-copy full Bibles here, namely a very battered copy of the original 1970 NAB, an NIV Study Bible from a second-hand bookstore, and an extremely dusty GNB - add to that a Greek NT (Nestle-Aland 27) which I got relatively cheap and the Japanese Interconfessional Translation NT - and yet I rarely open these (for some reason I currently have more chance of browsing the Greek NT - although I only know a little Greek; I can read it, but I'm ignorant about the grammar and stuff so don't ask ), preferring instead to look things up on the Internet. And I can sympathize: I mean, imagine opening a Bible and finding that the very first page you've flipped into is Leviticus.
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Old Jul 6, '12, 10:34 am
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Cool Re: Question about the Catholic Bible

- http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num4.htm








LW> 1229 - BIBLE FORBIDDEN TO LAYMEN (John 5:39, II Tim 3:15-17)

The Bible was never "forbidden" to laymen. Boettner has the same date and adds "forbidden to laymen, placed on the Index of Forbidden Books by the Council of Valencia....1229." I have two editions of Boettner's anti-Catholic book and the later edition corrects this to the Council of Toulouse. There was no Council of Valencia in 1229. And as Karl Keating points out, there never was a Council in Valencia, Spain and the Index of Forbidden Books wasn't established until 1543! What was "forbidden" were the erroneous versions of the Bible propogated by the Albigenses to support their heresy of Manicheanism. It was a local, temporary matter restricted to southern France. That is all.

< thought this was an intersesting debate : )

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