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  #91  
Old Jun 28, '12, 7:00 am
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: review of The New Ukrainian Catholic Catechism

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Originally Posted by TrueLight View Post
That's what I see on this forum for the most part. You do have a few posters who sort of "defend" Catholicism, but most to me seem to be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome".

I know a couple of trads who were raised Eastern Catholics (not converts). They love both rites. One women in particular attends daily Liturgy, but she also attends our TLM on some Latin feast days. She asks the intercession of both Eastern and Western saints. When it comes to major feasts, if both the Latin and Eastern observe during the same period, she observes the Eastern feasts/fasts. But otherwise she enjoys both the Latin rite and Ukrainian Byzantine rite. She does say the Filioque. She lovessssssssss her Rosary.

She identifies herself as a Catholic, first and foremost. If you get to know her and especially if she is talking about mass, she'll mention she is an Eastern Catholic.

In my opinion, she is a perfect example of an Eastern Catholic.

Sometimes, I get the impression (and some have pretty much said it), that some Eastern Catholics are only biding their time until they can return back to their mother churches.

I hope this attitude is not the norm.
Speaking perhaps more of my Ruthenian brothers and sisters, most do not even speak of such matters. They are concerned about their own relationship with God, and with the life of their own Particular Church. They remain faithfully Catholic, yet truly cherish their Eastern traditions.

Yet many are aware that not all is as it was "in the Old Country", nor thus as it should be. If they were to be classified as OICWR, as seems to be interpretted here, then one should logically ask why they do not simply pick up and go to the local Orthodox Church (in some neighborhoods, right across the street or next door).

Generalization is always a dangerous thing, and in fairness, I do not think we should label all those of Eastern heritage as being fundamentally disobedient to the Catholic Church, simply because they are heartbroken that they have been urged to return to their authentic roots, yet still have restrictions (e.g. married priesthood outside the "canonical territories") at the same time that prevent it.

I would humbly submit, if you really wanted to gauge one's true orientation (are you really Catholic or Orthodox, based on current norms), ask the following:

"If the Catholic and Orthodox Churches reunited tomorrow, would you become Orthodox or remain in your established Eastern Catholic Church?"

Of course, that question assumes an ecclesiastical model where the EC Churches survive the reunion in their present form, but it is revealing with that assumption taken as a given.

I have asked that question of those who express the most stringent of Orthodox positions while declaring themselves Eastern Catholic, and the answers are always surprising, yet largely consistent in theme.
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  #92  
Old Jun 28, '12, 7:13 am
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: review of The New Ukrainian Catholic Catechism

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This is quite different from a Catholic of the Latin Rite who if widowed or having obtained a decree of nullity can proceed to have a full blown wedding in the Church with all the bells and whistles. This cannot happen in an Orthodox situation and should not happen either for an Eastern Catholic. The second marriage is only a concession to allow taking a spouse to assist in one's theosis.
Thanks for this post, 5L. I have yet to have an experience in my own Ruthenian Church where this is put to test, so to speak. Why? I have never known a divorced Ruthenian, nor a widow/widower who has remarried.

I don't know why that is the case, but I'd like to believe that it is because we fundamentally believe that marriage is truly a permanent bond - it's somehow engrained in our spiritual DNA.

My brother just got married (to a young lady raised Southern Baptist) in our Church this past weekend (praise be to God, as we waited 42 yrs for this day!). While the vows included in our ritual include the "traditional" expression "until death do us part", the celebrating priest (a semi-retired Irish Catholic bi-ritual) did a marvelous job in his homily explaining this Eastern view of marriage. Most of the bride's family commented (most approvingly) on this afterward.
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  #93  
Old Jun 28, '12, 7:43 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: review of The New Ukrainian Catholic Catechism

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Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
This is quite different from a Catholic of the Latin Rite who if widowed or having obtained a decree of nullity can proceed to have a full blown wedding in the Church with all the bells and whistles. This cannot happen in an Orthodox situation and should not happen either for an Eastern Catholic. The second marriage is only a concession to allow taking a spouse to assist in one's theosis.
Well, depends on the Church. In our case (UGCC) I've learned our wedding has Roman theology with Byzantine traditions.
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  #94  
Old Jun 28, '12, 12:42 pm
dvdjs dvdjs is offline
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Default Re: review of The New Ukrainian Catholic Catechism

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Originally Posted by 5Loaves View Post
I don't think I saw anyone respond to this. East and West are quite different on this. If a person marries a second time in the Orthodox Church (and should be likewise in an ECC) there is no crowning and the service is penitential in nature. "The service makes very clear that this is a condescension to sin and human weakness....'better to marry than to burn'... "


This is quite different from a Catholic of the Latin Rite who if widowed or having obtained a decree of nullity can proceed to have a full blown wedding in the Church with all the bells and whistles. This cannot happen in an Orthodox situation and should not happen either for an Eastern Catholic. The second marriage is only a concession to allow taking a spouse to assist in one's theosis.
This subject has been discussed often here; it has been made clear that these ostensibly distinctive features are really are more history laced with some mythos than contemporary reality. It is no suprise, however, that the linked source would be out of the loop.

I had previously given a link to a good thread on ByzCath that features much commentary by an Orthodox priest (Serbian then ROCOR) who has actually given second marriages.

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthr...opics/333262/1

He dispels the notions, popular in threads here, that remarriage in the Orthodox church is penitential, without crowning, natural vs sacramental, difficult to obtain, etc. It's all greatly changed over the years, but he discredits Patristic theologians who point this out.
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  #95  
Old Jun 28, '12, 2:43 pm
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ByzCathCantor ByzCathCantor is offline
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Default Re: review of The New Ukrainian Catholic Catechism

Well, now back to our regularly scheduled programming (the OP) ...

I'm still eager to see and read the English translation, yet have gotten a flavor for the work both from critiques such as this and from unofficially translated excerpts elsewhere.

The critiques I have seen thus far were either "neutral" at best to "very negative", with none being positive. While the reasons vary, they are consistent in opining that it is much like the existing CCC, only with Eastern "twists".

While its seems that many had hoped for a more "Orthodox-friendly" text, I never really had such expectations. Rather, I did hope that some of the more "controversial" Catholic dogma (Papal supremacy and infallibility; the Immaculate Conception; etc.) could be addressed from the point of view of Eastern Catholicism, presumably giving some explanation as to how such was "reconcilied" with Eastern thought by the Eastern Catholic Churches.

The parenthetic inclusion of the Filioque, as reported, appears somewhat unfortunate if indeed unaccompanied by an express, catechetical "reconciliation" of the Filioque to the theology agreed and expressed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. That said, I'll wait to see the official English text in entirety.

I did have some hope that this could be a model text for Eastern Catholicism in general, and we'll have to see how the other Particular Churches react over time.
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