I Took a Baptist to Church - Catholics & Anglicans Help Me Out - Page 6

JustaServant · #76 Jun 22, '12, 4:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AbideWithMe

A thoughtful post from you, JustaServant. Thank you. I feel "heard". I'm not contesting your experience, and I actually agree with most of your criticisms, but I just meant to point out that significant parts of the American Evangelical world haven't fallen into the megachurch entertainment mistake.

I certainly hope they don't, but education moves slower than fads. And before you know it, the fads are over and leave nothing but desolation in their wake.

As for generalizing. Be aware there are two kinds of Catholics on CAF:
1. Those who are cradle Catholic who have had only limited experiences with Protestatnts. If you have only had one or two experiences in an evangelical church, you might imagine they're all like that. Like I said earlier, there are some Catholic parishes I would never bring a non-Catholic to for fear they would have a similar reaction.
2. Those who are either converts or (in my case) reverts. We can get rather defensive with the "broad brush" because we know what we are talking about. There was a Baptist on CAF (now banned) who essentially called us liars and painted a picture of the Baptist world that I and a few others knew were not accurate (probably to "win souls to Jesus"). So we probably have a knee-jerk reaction.

**Contarini** · #77 Jun 22, '12, 7:34 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor7

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn't trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one's spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn't compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn't know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

I don't see how that's even worth answering.

If he thinks ritual is empty, pray for him and let him go his way.

Either people feel hunger for liturgy or they don't.

Myself, I find non-liturgical worship terribly "empty"--a lot of well-meaning people babbling away as if their thoughts and feelings were what most mattered. I know that's rude and uncharitable--there is much value in extemporaneous prayer--but after 14 years of Anglicanism I find it pretty hard to have patience with this kind of anti-ritual rhetoric, when my own prejudices run quite the other way.

You might, just to unsettle him, try citing Matt. 6:7 and pointing out that "thinking they will be heard by their many words" fits the typical evangelical extemporaneous prayer a lot better than an Anglican collect. . . .

Or, more constructively, if you really want to engage this, you could point out the Biblical and theological content of the liturgy. You might also point out that we pray with the Church's words (in public worship) because we profess the Church's faith. That is very helpful when we have "crises of faith," as you say he is. I can say the Creed even if I'm struggling with what I believe, because it's the faith of the Church and I choose to trust the Church.

But that may not be helpful to him. He just may not be in a place where the liturgy can speak to him.

Edwin

CopticChristian · #78 Jun 22, '12, 7:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustaServant

I certainly hope they don't, but education moves slower than fads. And before you know it, the fads are over and leave nothing but desolation in their wake.

As for generalizing. Be aware there are two kinds of Catholics on CAF:
1. Those who are cradle Catholic who have had only limited experiences with Protestatnts. If you have only had one or two experiences in an evangelical church, you might imagine they're all like that. Like I said earlier, there are some Catholic parishes I would never bring a non-Catholic to for fear they would have a similar reaction.
2. Those who are either converts or (in my case) reverts. We can get rather defensive with the "broad brush" because we know what we are talking about. There was a Baptist on CAF (now banned) who essentially called us liars and painted a picture of the Baptist world that I and a few others knew were not accurate (probably to "win souls to Jesus"). So we probably have a knee-jerk reaction.

Just,

I feel left out. Here I am a Catholic all my life. Here I am not a convert or a revert. Here I am having a great deal of Experience in Protesant thought, evangelized to the extent that I made it a study for the past 30 years. I attended numerous services, Bible studies, stadiums, read, listened and still study.....Wow...you just left me hanging in the breezee...could you please create another category for me..

thanks...

JustaServant · #79 Jun 22, '12, 7:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Just,

I feel left out. Here I am a Catholic all my life. Here I am not a convert or a revert. Here I am having a great deal of Experience in Protesant thought, evangelized to the extent that I made it a study for the past 30 years. I attended numerous services, Bible studies, stadiums, read, listened and still study.....Wow...you just left me hanging in the breezee...could you please create another category for me..

thanks...

I was gonna be a wise guy, but decided not to.

I gotta get back to work, I'll let you fill it in:

Quote:

3.

AbideWithMe · #80 Jun 22, '12, 8:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contarini

I don't see how that's even worth answering.

If he thinks ritual is empty, pray for him and let him go his way.

Either people feel hunger for liturgy or they don't.

Myself, I find non-liturgical worship terribly "empty"--a lot of well-meaning people babbling away as if their thoughts and feelings were what most mattered. I know that's rude and uncharitable--there is much value in extemporaneous prayer--but after 14 years of Anglicanism I find it pretty hard to have patience with this kind of anti-ritual rhetoric, when my own prejudices run quite the other way.

You might, just to unsettle him, try citing Matt. 6:7 and pointing out that "thinking they will be heard by their many words" fits the typical evangelical extemporaneous prayer a lot better than an Anglican collect. . . .

Or, more constructively, if you really want to engage this, you could point out the Biblical and theological content of the liturgy. You might also point out that we pray with the Church's words (in public worship) because we profess the Church's faith. That is very helpful when we have "crises of faith," as you say he is. I can say the Creed even if I'm struggling with what I believe, because it's the faith of the Church and I choose to trust the Church.

But that may not be helpful to him. He just may not be in a place where the liturgy can speak to him.

Edwin

If the OP and his friend are up to the discussion, I think the "Or, more constructively, if you really want to engage this....." paragraph is the way to go. JonNC made a similar suggestion.

As for having a hunger for liturgy or not, I think it's partly an acquired taste; and if a person is already prejudiced against it by their upbringing, and then introduced to it too abruptly without explanations of the depth underlying it, it's not surprising if that person says something rude and ignorant as the OP's friend did to him. That doesn't excuse the OP's friend for his rudeness, but I think it does give some hope that this is worth the OP's time as far as trying to discuss it further with his friend.

manualman · #81 Jun 28, '12, 12:53 pm

This very subject came up in a First Things article. The author is a protestant (Lutheran), actually, but articulates what bothers him about anti-liturgical services.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesqua...rgical-renewal

Granted, he can't speak for all protestants or evangelicals either. But you can hardly accuse him of being a ghetto restricted catholic....

Cat Herder · #82 Jun 28, '12, 8:08 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patavium

What are the general points of a Baptist "Liturgy"?

1) Rock Concert Music

2) Powerpoint Presentations

3) Pastor with Jokes, and comments about scriptures in PPT

4) Questions for the audience

5) Pieces of bread, and grape juice once in a while?

How is this worship? This is an extended bible study, or a social gathering.

Only when they have a MARRIAGE is there a ritual. And that ritual is acknowledged to have POWER, specifically the power to take away the sin of fornication. Marriage is a Sacrament. All Christians, even the most "independent fundamental" ones, must acknowledge that, and once one Sacrament is admitted to exist then the error of rejecting all rituals as powerless is obvious.

More here.

Anna Scott · #83 Jul 3, '12, 10:19 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor7

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn't trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one's spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn't compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn't know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church. So, I understand the great difference between a Baptist service and liturgical worship.

Keep in mind that your friend may have been told that Catholics, Anglicans, and Eastern Orthodox are not Christians. That may be a factor in your friend's response.

Regarding rituals; Baptists sometimes draw upon Matthew 6:7 (KJV): But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Our Rector tells us that in worship, we are not the "audience." The Holy Trinity is the "audience." All our worship is directed towards God; and the Holy Eucharist is at the heart of our worship.

In the Baptist Church I left, worship services had become something akin to a spectator sport (12,000 membership). At least, it began to feel that way to me. The first time I visited the Episcopal Church (High Church, Anglo Catholic,) I fell in love with the liturgy. I didn't know such worship existed.

The prayers in the liturgy are based on Holy Scripture and follow the example of The Lord's Prayer--which is a testament to corporate prayer. It begins with Our Father, not My Father and so on.

Also, you can point to the substantial reading of Holy Scripture. In the Baptist Church, the minister may base his entire sermon on one passage, sometimes just 2 or 3 verses.

Our Priests deliver a Sermon. Through our liturgy, we pray, read Holy Scripture, worship and praise God, profess our faith, repent and confess our sins, ask for mercy and forgiveness, partake of the Holy Eucharist, and thank our Eternal God for accepting us as living members of His Son our Savior Jesus Christ through the Sacrament of His Body and Blood. We ask to be sent into the world in peace, granting us strength and courage to love and serve God with gladness and singleness of heart through Christ our Lord.

To use Baptist terminology, one will find an expanded and Biblical "Sinner's Prayer" in our liturgy every time we come together.

Hope this helps.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

Anna Scott · #84 Jul 3, '12, 10:27 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Just,

I feel left out. Here I am a Catholic all my life. Here I am not a convert or a revert. Here I am having a great deal of Experience in Protesant thought, evangelized to the extent that I made it a study for the past 30 years. I attended numerous services, Bible studies, stadiums, read, listened and still study.....Wow...you just left me hanging in the breezee...could you please create another category for me..

thanks...

Coptic, Coptic, Coptic,

Don't want you to be hanging in the breeze.

You just defined your category and it is a good one. You are one of my favorite Catholics.

Pen

Izdaari · #85 Jul 3, '12, 10:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godith

I think you answered well. I go to a 'praise and worship' style church, but I love to visit Anglican or Catholic churches. The ritual is not empty to me. It's very beautiful and spiritually rich. I think that's the problem, really. It's very rich, and very deep. If you are used to a plainer diet, it's hard to digest. Your friend, if they come along again, may need more help and explanation of what is happening and why. Tell them what about it particularly speaks to you, and how it helps you meet with God. Don't underestimate the power of personal testimony when it comes to these things. Your own experience is an excellent place to start, because it's 'real'. Your friend may never feel 100% at home in your church, but you can help dismantle the myth that the ritual is 'empty'.

I recently moved from a "praise and worship" style church (Assemblies of God) to a liturgical one ("emergent" Anglo-Catholic). I'm glad for the change, but I wouldn't say either style is "empty". God is present in both places, but I find I prefer the liturgical style. I also connect better with this community, possibly because I share it's cultural and social values more.

Anna Scott · #86 Jul 3, '12, 11:41 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izdaari

I recently moved from a "praise and worship" style church (Assemblies of God) to a liturgical one ("emergent" Anglo-Catholic). I'm glad for the change, but I wouldn't say either style is "empty". God is present in both places, but I find I prefer the liturgical style. I also connect better with this community, possibly because I share it's cultural and social values more.

Hi, Izdaari,

I agree.

Also, I think one can find emptiness in either, depending on one's spiritual state of mind.

Anna

mackbrislawn · #87 Jul 3, '12, 8:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by stewstew03

Speaking as a former Baptist, I can tell you that baptist churches (affiliated with the SBC) are moving toward "info-tainment" on Sundays, with a little bit of God mixed in the message here and there...

I think entertainment is a factor in evangelical services, and they have toe-tapping music and singing. Of course, I can go to the Cowboy Saloon for toe-tapping music as well.

andrewstx · #88 Jul 4, '12, 6:32 pm

Most of the fundamental churches do no allow their members to visit night clubs or venues that offer that kind of music.

So they get that at church, lots of churches play blue grass music, and local to here
"cowboy churches" are very popular with country southern music. There's one nearby and the have services in a barn with hay bales for pews.

Behind the barn are rodeo grounds and the are about to have their annual ranch rodeo and reeevival.

They call themselves "non=denominational", but they are affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.

ComeHome2Rome · #89 Jul 6, '12, 2:04 pm

"The rituals may have seemed empty to you, but they were actually full of Jesus Christ our Lord and our God! Did you listen to all the Scripture that was read during the Mass? And most especially the ritual of the Eucharist, let me show you a passage in Bible...The Gospel of John Chapter 6."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor7

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn't trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one's spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn't compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn't know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

pismopal · #90 Jul 6, '12, 5:06 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor7

A friend of mine, who is Baptist, is having a sort of crisis of faith so I invited him to attend church with me last Sunday; I thought a different perspective might help him out. I wasn't trying to convert him, as I firmly believe one's spiritual journey is their own to travel.

After Mass, we got in the car and I asked him what he thought. He asked me how I could attend a church that was so ritualistic and empty. I empathized with his sentiments because I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist church and have heard this criticism many times.

I told him that he couldn't compare a Baptist service to an Episcopal service; the two are too different. A Baptist service is for praise and worship, and he should think of an Episcopal Mass, from procession to recession, as one long prayer.

I didn't know what to say; I was speaking off the cuff. What should I have said?

Your friend may have thought the Mass felt "empty" because he was not actually present in spirit. One must know what is going on and be there, body and spirit,....just sayin'