Why the silliness in the Mass?

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by Presbyterian20

My thoughts exactly. I am sure modernized mass also tends to be a mostly American trend.

Do you have any experience attending Mass elsewhere? We have had several priests from South America and Africa. The ones I have discussed this with mention an even greater acculturation in their country.

Interestingly enough, the classic example of modern music, "Kum Ba Yay," is in Gullah. If we were to sing a Latin equivalent song, it would be "Veni, Sancti Spiritu." The idea of invoking the presence of God is not really very modern.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by TheRealJuliane

This. I go to a very non-traditional parish sometimes, to a more traditional/orthodox one at other times. I much prefer the more traditional one, but my husband likes the less orthodox (not surprising). In fact, the very best Mass for me is the daily Mass at the orthodox parish. There is NO music (which I find distracting and superfluous most of the time, if not annoying) and the focus is on the elements of the Mass itself. I frequently wish we could substitute 2 weekday Masses for the Sunday Mass.

I love your analogy of the heavy velvet cloak! Protestant = warm fuzzy jacket (Baptists maybe even a mink coat? LOL); Traditional Catholic parish = heavy velvet cloak (lined in satin); Modern/Liberal Catholic parish = windbreaker! That's just great.

We more traditional Catholics love our "bells and smells!" And more traditional music.

I'm not sure if it's my bipolar disorder or what but I go to both. On Saturday vigil I attend a very contemporary Mass. The priest has been in ministry for 35 years and his homilies touch my heart in a way that will often move me to tears. On Sunday I attend a very traditional Mass with organ music. I love the people but don't really feel as much connection with the homily. But that's OK, I'm there to experience Jesus and that's all that really matters. If you look around you can find the Mass that speaks to you. I asked a priest once about where to attend and he said, "God is not interested in micro-managing your Sunday. Go where you are being fed."

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

Which is precisely why we don't use CDs, MP3s etc to provide perfect music at Mass.

Bottom line:

Unless you are willing to offer to help with music ministry in your parish - and your parish should be the local parish, not one you prefer - then you don't really have a right to complain about the music - or even to offer an opinion!

Same goes with all other parish ministries.

Put up or shut up.

That's my !

I drive an hour to the parish I attend. It's worth it.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

Organ music makes me feel like I'm at a funeral......

I agree. I remember roller skating to organ music, but the church I attend on Sundays plays it. To each their own. The most beautiful Mass I recall was Christmas Eve with a harpist, talk about Wowing me, and I'm usually pretty contemporary in my taste but that was so beautiful.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by HelenRose

It sort of depends on the quality of the music and the situation.

It also depends on the intent of the musicians. It is important for musicians to ask themselves what is their intent. Is the intent to irritate and antagonize other parishioners or is the intent to give their best to God?

In our little mission church our musicians share Sundays. We alternate with a Ordinary Latin Mass, Guitar Mass, and a regular rather serious choir. Each group does their best to please God. We work with what we have. The congregation supports all of the musicians.

P.S. Poorly done Latin Mass by musicians that don't care is just as bad as poorly done defiant guitar masses.

I will say this,

I used to detest guitars. I did...and I went to a divorce support group and decided I wanted to attend this huge church for Mass on a Saturday afternoon. I saw no organ and a "band" set up off to the side. I'm already starting in with my "attitude". I do like contemporary Christian music and my favorite song is "Grace Like Rain" which is a re-working of Amazing Grace. As I'm sitting there, I'd been really banged up at a former church and feeling so horrible about the failure of my marriage and hating myself.

As the music started guess what they sang? "Grace Like Rain"....and that's what my tears were, rain...I cried my eyes out--that song really spoke to me and I've learned a huge lesson about judging the music. God will speak...we just need to shut our beaks and turn off our judgement and listen.

[mark a]

Originally Posted by Presbyterian20

So I have been much dismayed to find silly guitar playing, and odd (hippie like) songs and so on as part of the mass.

Welcome to the club!

[mark a]

Originally Posted by Annabelle Marie

Organ music makes me feel like I'm at a funeral......

In my humble opinion, the key to good organ music at mass is whether or not the particular church has a PA (or real pipes) good enough to pound out the first octave bass notes.

[triumphguy]

Originally Posted by Irishgal49

I drive an hour to the parish I attend. It's worth it.

Like I said my 2 cents

And I don't see you judging the parish near by

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by jmcrae

Guitars and electronic keyboards seem to prevail in the suburbs. The core continues to have beautiful pipe organ music.

Our parish has an organ and a piano. For several years we had a music teacher who played, but an organist she wasn't and the results weren't pretty. OTOH, she had a wonderful voice.

When she left we had no choir or music for at least a year. Then a group of teachers got together to sing at Mass. None had training in music, they were simply a group of friends who sang together at parties accompanied by strummed guitars. We had that for about a year, joined by a few other parishioners who don't read music and learn by ear. They were later joined by a doctor who could play the organ, but was not organist. He had a softer touch than the previous person and he was often accompanied by strummed guitars. OTOH, he played a fabulous classical guitar, something he unfortunately never did at Mass.

He retired and moved away a year ago. We're back to strummed guitars and, because the two teachers who are the 'leaders' taught Catechism in the Catholic school system, when we had one, we are often treated to songs that were used as part of the catechetical program and are didactic, meant for children and totally unsuitable for Mass.

They also prefer the songs they grew up with in the 70s and Carey Landry is a particular favourite. They would rather use old paperback Glory & Praise booklets than the CBW III which we have in our pews. They know nothing about the GIRM and any time you say "The GIRM says we can't do this (i.e. sing something other than the official 'Gloria')" the response is invariably "Oh, I'm sure God doesn't mind."

I must give them their due, though. In spite of everything, they have done a great job learning the new Mass setting even if they had little with which to work considering what we were given in Canada. Sadly, when the CCCB put together the book "Celebrate in Song" they showed their bias by dividing it into sections listed "Mass Setting A", "Mass setting B", "Mass setting C", "Chants". "Chants" should really have been "Mass setting D", if not "Mass setting A", which they would at least have tried out. Not labelling it a Mass setting ensured that our choir, and probably many others, didn't even look at it.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by jmcrae

It's where the Altar is moveable, and made out of wood. Such Altars are forbidden to contain relics, because someone could steal the thing - hence, "coffee table".

Our altar is made of wood and moveable, even if very heavy & solid, but does contain relics in a stone embedded in the mensa.

From the pictures I've seen, this altar is the same altar we've had since the parish was established in 1958. When you walk around it and look at the back it becomes very obvious that it was simply pulled away from the wall after Vat. II: beautiful enlaid woodwork on the front, plywood on the back. It would have been just as easy to steal the relics in 1958 as it would be today -- easier in fact since the church would have been unlocked and unsupervised most of the time.

[clem456]

We have a top notch liturgical director who knows liturgy and liturgical history very well. He is very fluent in pipe organ or piano. He is well versed in ancient music so we incorporate many old Latin pieces at Mass. He also uses lots of modern music with guitars and stand up basses as well as hispanic music with horns and drums. Everything is liturgically correct by the book. He also trains the priests in Mass parts and Easter music etc...Just an unbelievably talented person.

He has a degree in music as well as theology and the parish pays him almost $50,000 plus benefits. We had an old pipe organ for almost a century, that was replaced with a new pipe organ about 15 years ago for about $70,000. So, if you don't like the liturgical situation in your parish, you need to open up your pocketbook and be part of the solution.

[Irishgal49]

Originally Posted by triumphguy

Like I said my 2 cents

And I don't see you judging the parish near by

Well there are MAJOR illicit things going on in Mass but the main thing is that I don't feel at home there. I went quite a few times and will still go when the weather is bad and I can't get to my preferred location. The older priest there who hears confessions is amazing.

[Phemie]

Originally Posted by clem456

He has a degree in music as well as theology and the parish pays him almost $50,000 plus benefits. We had an old pipe organ for almost a century, that was replaced with a new pipe organ about 15 years ago for about $70,000. So, if you don't like the liturgical situation in your parish, you need to open up your pocketbook and be part of the solution.

And that just goes to show how different parishes are. What you pay your music director is almost the total income for our parish last year. We paid our Pastor $1000/mo and the administrator who replaced him $500/mo (he was Pastor elsewhere and they paid $500). Finance Council is having a meltdown because the incoming Pastor will be a diocesan priest (that's never been the case in the 54 years since our parish was erected) and the amount we will be paying him is almost double what we paid a religious priest.

[clem456]

We are located in a rural town in Ohio of about 17,000 people. There are I believe about 400 or so families in the parish. The parish is small but very vibrant and active, and supports a small Catholic school pre-k through 12. The laity is very active in ministry groups led by the pastor of course, but mostly led by a pastoral associate with a degree from LIMEX (she also gets paid a fair wage). It does not take a large parish to have great liturgy or catechesis. It takes commitment to the parish to have a great parish... not wishing you had a different parish.

And I will say that we have almost none of this divisive bickering about the Mass forms or the music. These disputes over the music and which way the priest faces is all completely new to me. Occasionally we have someone who complains to the choir about the Latin or about the "new" music but the director of liturgy attempts to accomodate different age groups and tastes iin music from ancient to modern to Hispanic.

[Ridgerunner]

Originally Posted by MarkInOregon

You lost me on the last half of your post (I am not that sharp so it is no surprise). Could you expect me not to denegrate you because I don't like you painting? Could you expect me to be civil and not make snide or nasty comments about you and your painting simply because I don't like it? If I didn't like the painting I wouldn't buy it or put it up, but what I wouldn't do is call you names and refer to it in a derogatory way. I might tell people I didn't care for it--that it was not to my taste.

Our tastes in music--what we consider good or bad--is subjective. Just as much modern music is dreadful--so are many of the old hymns. Many are not only deadful but often unsingable. It seems petty to me for people to call names. For every person at a church who finds the music objectionable you will find a person who doesn't. Why do so many people feel that God only approves of their way or their tastes and anything not meeting with their approval is unholy, unwothy, from the devil and offensive to God? Can't they simply say they don't like that music? I guess I just feel it should be about Jesus and giving him glory and not about my tastes and desires.

Peace of Christ,
Mark

When one puts oneself into the public arena and sells a product, one needs to realize that it is then subject to critique.Sometimes the critique is put in blunt fashion so the meaning is clear.

If I paint a painting and show it to my best friend, I would imagine the best friend would be complimentary and nothing else. But I would not expect him to hang it prominently in his house or go touting it to others.

If, on the other hand, I try to sell it for money or hang it in an art show, I ought to know, and would know, that I am then putting it up for critique, even blunt critique. And I should not expect anything else. If my pastor allowed me to paint the ceiling of our church and if it was just dreadful, is everybody supposed to like it or not say, for example, that the figures are misshapen and that the color combinations don't work?

Is nobody supposed to say "Father, can we please paint that over?"

Lots of people have commented on here that "Catholics don't sing". Well, that's only partially true. In the parishes I attend, if something really is good, people will sing it. If it's not, they won't. As a small example, a few months ago the music director introduced a fairly complex hymn written by Mozart. I say it was fairly complex because it was. Grace notes and all. But, like virtually everything by Mozart, it has a "musical logic" to it. You can almost intuit the next notes from the ones before. That's why it has stood the test of time, like any good art does. Any new hymn is a bit difficult, but after only two introductions, people sang it lustily, and it's now part of the repertoire. And that's in the Ozarks. Why would hillbillies like Mozart? Because it's good art, and good art has resonance within people, whether it's painting, literature, music or poetry.

But ask them to sing "On Eagles' Wings", which they have heard endlessly, few people will. It has only stood the test of time because it's still in the books and people don't have a choice. That's not art. That's coercion, or attempted coercion. After 40-odd years, one would think the clunkers would have been removed. But no, the same old tedious songs are in them, with some scattered exceptions that people will actually sing. And people then wonder, pointlessly, why "Catholics don't sing".