Misunderstandings and Irregularities in Post-Vatican II Liturgy (from a liturgical leader in the Church)

mdgspencer · #1 Jul 10, '12, 4:48 am

Drawing on the Pope's own views, this article speaks in very specific terms not only of the good things that that came after Vatican II, but also of some serious problems that have intruded into the Catholic liturgy.
see www.thetablet.co.uk/blogs/333/18

sedonaman · #2 Jul 10, '12, 6:28 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdgspencer

Drawing on the Pope's own views, this article speaks in very specific terms not only of the good things that that came after Vatican II, but also of some serious problems that have intruded into the Catholic liturgy.
see www.thetablet.co.uk/blogs/333/18

I think the Church lost a lot of people ["lost" as in going way over their heads] when they started referring to everything we do as "liturgy". Just what is "liturgy" anyway? I never heard of it in my catechism classes. Whoever heard of the "holy sacrifice of the liturgy"?
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

WoundedIcon · #3 Jul 10, '12, 6:58 am

The Mass is the title of the Latin Rite liturgy. It's not technically a Mass, but a liturgy called the Mass. A liturgy is what any Christian worship ritual is called. There's also the Divine Liturgy of Basil, of Chrysostom, the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Holy Qorbono, and so on among the rites of the 23 Catholic Churches.

sedonaman · #4 Jul 10, '12, 7:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoundedIcon

The Mass is the title of the Latin Rite liturgy. It's not technically a Mass, but a liturgy called the Mass. A liturgy is what any Christian worship ritual is called. There's also the Divine Liturgy of Basil, of Chrysostom, the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Holy Qorbono, and so on among the rites of the 23 Catholic Churches.

So it is a generic term. What is behind this big switch to generic terms, anyway? I can't say my "wife"; I have to say my "spouse". I can't say brothers and sisters; it's "siblings".

Why can't we say "Mass" when we mean "Mass", "etc." when we mean "etc." like we used to? I smell another liberal plot to control the language to let evil gain social acceptance [e.g., "spouse" could mean homosexual spouse], and refuse to be complicit.

LoyalViews · #5 Jul 10, '12, 7:33 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

I think the Church lost a lot of people ["lost" as in going way over their heads] when they started referring to everything we do as "liturgy". Just what is "liturgy" anyway? I never heard of it in my catechism classes. Whoever heard of the "holy sacrifice of the liturgy"?
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

Whoever heard of the holy sacrifice of the liturgy? Not me. They went past that, it's was the "Remembrance of the Lord's Supper" here.

You're spot on right. It is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, liturgy being a generic term used to describe any ceremonial event or service.

sedonaman · #6 Jul 10, '12, 8:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoyalViews

Whoever heard of the holy sacrifice of the liturgy? Not me. They went past that, it's was the "Remembrance of the Lord's Supper" here.
...

That can't be right.

Quote:

“The Altar of Sacrifice”
…
“Altar Crucifix – a crucifix placed above the altar at the center to mark the place as a new Calvary and to remind us that the Mass is the same Sacrifice as that of the Cross.” [see below, from my pre-Vatican II Missal].

Hence, "Holy Sacrifice of the Mass".
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

ConstantineTG · #7 Jul 10, '12, 8:03 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoundedIcon

The Mass is the title of the Latin Rite liturgy. It's not technically a Mass, but a liturgy called the Mass. A liturgy is what any Christian worship ritual is called. There's also the Divine Liturgy of Basil, of Chrysostom, the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts, the Holy Qorbono, and so on among the rites of the 23 Catholic Churches.

The Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts is not equal to the Mass. There is no Consecration. It is what Westerners commonly call "Communion Service", though it is regularly used in the East during Lent, and with good reason.

ConstantineTG · #8 Jul 10, '12, 8:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

I think the Church lost a lot of people ["lost" as in going way over their heads] when they started referring to everything we do as "liturgy". Just what is "liturgy" anyway? I never heard of it in my catechism classes. Whoever heard of the "holy sacrifice of the liturgy"?
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

Liturgy came from the Greek term which means "priestly service". Mass is more of a Latin term. There is nothing wrong in calling the Mass as Liturgy. In the East we call it Divine Liturgy.

sedonaman · #9 Jul 10, '12, 8:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

... There is nothing wrong in calling the Mass as Liturgy. ...

Except that 99.9999999% in the Roman Rite know it as "Mass". What meaning does "liturgy" convey that "Mass" doesn't? When I confess that "I missed liturgy," does it convey more meaning than "I missed Mass"? Are the "in" folks trying to be esoteric, or what? Can't they leave anything alone?
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

MPSchneiderLC · #10 Jul 10, '12, 8:52 am

My class on "Liturgy" as part of a theology program in Rome gave several definitions of the liturgy. First, you have the Eastern "divine liturgy" which means what us Westerners mean by mass. However in the West, we have a larger definition that includes all the sacraments (baptism, etc too not just the Eucharist) and sacramentals (Eucharistic Benediction, Liturgy of the Hours, etc.). The general definition (paraphrasing) was the totality of Christ's "symbolic" action in his Church to give us grace. Actually tat doesn't sound quite right but it is the best I can remember now.

Hopefully that helps.

curlycool89 · #11 Jul 10, '12, 8:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

I think the Church lost a lot of people ["lost" as in going way over their heads] when they started referring to everything we do as "liturgy". Just what is "liturgy" anyway? I never heard of it in my catechism classes. Whoever heard of the "holy sacrifice of the liturgy"?

The Liturgy is a public action of the Church. There are 2 principle liturgies: The Mass (which includes the Liturgy of the Word, also formally called the Liturgy of the Catechumens, and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, also formally called the Liturgy of the Faithful) and the Divine Office (LOTH).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

Except that 99.9999999% in the Roman Rite know it as "Mass". What meaning does "liturgy" convey that "Mass" doesn't? When I confess that "I missed liturgy," does it convey more meaning than "I missed Mass"? Are the "in" folks trying to be esoteric, or what? Can't they leave anything alone?

The Liturgy of the Hours (LOTH, also called the Divine Office) is a Liturgy, but not a Mass.

All Masses are Liturgies, but not all Liturgies are Masses. The 2 terms should under no circumstances be conflated.

liturgyluver · #12 Jul 10, '12, 8:59 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

Except that 99.9999999% in the Roman Rite know it as "Mass". What meaning does "liturgy" convey that "Mass" doesn't? When I confess that "I missed liturgy," does it convey more meaning than "I missed Mass"? Are the "in" folks trying to be esoteric, or what? Can't they leave anything alone?

Mass is just one aspect of the liturgy - which includes all the public worship, devotions, the other sacraments and the way they are executed, and also the Liturgy of the Hours.

Liturgy is not a new word - it exisited before Vatican II

sedonaman · #13 Jul 10, '12, 9:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by liturgyluver

Mass is just one aspect of the liturgy - which includes all the public worship, devotions, the other sacraments and the way they are executed, and also the Liturgy of the Hours.

Liturgy is not a new word - it exisited before Vatican II

It was not in common use before about 5 years ago, at least not where I attended Mass [!!!].

Then they flipped out like it was a new word: and, as you say, everything became liturgy, even transporting food for the poor. I suspect they discovered it and wanted to confuse the hoi polloi, or sound superior to them [my main objection]. I know other parishioners of the "old" school who don't like its use any more than I do.

Why can't we just say what we mean?

E.g., my wife [!!!] and I own two cars. When I'm going to run an errand, I don't say "I'm taking a car"; I say, "I'm taking the Toyota."
_________________
“The time is sure to come when people will not accept sound teaching, but their ears will be itching for anything new, and they will collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then they will shut their ears to the truth and will turn to myths.” – 2 Timothy, 4:3-4

**ProVobis** · #14 Jul 10, '12, 11:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by curlycool89

The Liturgy of the Hours (LOTH, also called the Divine Office) is a Liturgy, but not a Mass.

FWIW, the Latin terms (as used by the Popes) are Divinum Officium and Missa.

It may be interesting to note that Divinum Officium has been translated into English as Divine Office but it could have been just as easily translated as Divine Duty, parallel to Cicero's De Officiis being translated as On [Civic] Duties.

curlycool89 · #15 Jul 10, '12, 12:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

FWIW, the Latin terms (as used by the Popes) are Divinum Officium and Missa.

And it's also Liturgia Horarum.

Mass is kind of an odd one, since the english word "Mass" came from the Latin Missa (from "Ite, missa est", which in the new translation is "Go forth, the Mass is ended").

Of course, if we wanted to be really traditional, we'd call it the eucharistia (Greek for thanksgiving, from the way Jesus conducted the Last Supper, as a thanksgiving).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProVobis

It may be interesting to note that Divinum Officium has been translated into English as Divine Office but it could have been just as easily translated as Divine Duty, parallel to Cicero's De Officiis being translated as On [Civic] Duties.

Cool. I guess that would make us quite Kantian then.