An explanation for the focus on homosexuality and abortion

[Elizabeth502]

Originally Posted by tqualey

I looked at the picture and read the captions.

Whoever put this together has their own agenda

Yeah, no kidding. When you have no true argument (no real contrasts that can be validly made), it's important to distract.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by eternalrest

It is a fight. Look at California. Proposition 8 was passed. " On August 4, 2010, a federal court declared the ban unconstitutional in Perry v. Schwarzenegger, a decision which was upheld by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit on February 7, 2012. A series of stays have kept the legal availability of same-sex marriage on hold pending further appeal."

It may go to the Supreme Court, and who knows what will happen then? Especially if Obama is re-elected in Nov. 2012? If Proposition 8 is stricken down by the Supreme Court, then no state will be able to ban same-sex marriage even if a majority of the people in the State want to do so.

Public opinion polling in favor of traditional marriage goes down every year as well. Nothing is wrong with supporting traditional marriage; people surely must support traditional marriage. But it is important to also support anti-slavery work *strongly.* It is not just whether you are right or wrong; it is also your order of priorities. Do you let something that is extremely important fall to the back of the line?

Dreamer,

Did you know that 12 steps/AA has been ruled to be a religion by the 7th and 9th Circuit Courts...it will probably never make it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court would agree, so no one is taking it there.

Did you know that the Supreme Court does not have to hear a case. The Supreme Court may say...the state has ruled and it is a state's right issue...then where is your fight?

Do you honestly believe that the Supreme Court will look at 42 states that ban same sex marriage and California and then say...well of course we should just let all the same sex couples get married and the the states can take a hike.

Same Sex marriage is at the end of the line for a reason.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by LJH_80

I was speaking with a homosexual friend last week, and she had found this picture which talks about how people were boycotting Oreo for the pride cookie, but not talking at all about human trafficking or hungry children in the U.S.

My first thought was that this is just about what sells; I know the Catholic Church puts a lot of work toward feeding the hungry in the world, though admittedly I've never heard about a concerted Catholic anti-human-trafficking program.

But my second thought is that it's about salvation, and that's the one I wanted your opinions on.

The difference between human trafficking and homosexuality is that nobody is trying to tell us that human trafficking is okay. Yes, dealing in child prostitutes is terrible, but the pimps and the customers both go to hell, while the traumatized children have a chance to go to Heaven, and so it all works out in the end. No action on our part is required, we only need a vague sense of disapproval to be morally correct and achieve our own salvation.If homosexuality were just some guys or girls doing bad things with each other and going to hell for it, then it wouldn't be a big deal. But the issue is not what they're doing it's that they're trying to tell my kids that it's morally acceptable. If my kid believes that, then even if she never actually commits a homosexual act, she will not have the right morality, and may not get into Heaven.Likewise with abortion, the evil provider and the customer go to hell (barring later repentance) and the baby goes to Heaven... the situation works out fine, just like child prostitutes. But if my children grow up thinking it's okay, instead of believing Biblical morality, then it's not just the involved parties whose salvation is threatened.

I have read all of your postings and as I understand it you are no longer an athiest, you are a Christian...I am confused with what you write...

You speak of salvation and having the right morality gains entrance to heaven and you say that being morally correct we achieve our own salvation. You also speak of "biblical morality" and threatened salvation.


You have stated that you are a former athiest and now a Christian.

I ask you to tell me what is "biblical morality".

I ask you to tell me how we achieve our own salvation. This is an interesting proposition.

I ask you to tell me how salvation can be threatened. Some say it can and some say it cannot be.

How does the right morality get you into heaven and not having the right morality negate heaven..

Just a few questions for clarity of your position on these issues.

[tqualey]

Hi, CopticChristian,

I would be interested in the answers to these questions, too.

God bless

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

I have read all of your postings and as I understand it you are no longer an athiest, you are a Christian...I am confused with what you write...

You speak of salvation and having the right morality gains entrance to heaven and you say that being morally correct we achieve our own salvation. You also speak of "biblical morality" and threatened salvation.


You have stated that you are a former athiest and now a Christian.

I ask you to tell me what is "biblical morality".

I ask you to tell me how we achieve our own salvation. This is an interesting proposition.

I ask you to tell me how salvation can be threatened. Some say it can and some say it cannot be.

How does the right morality get you into heaven and not having the right morality negate heaven..

Just a few questions for clarity of your position on these issues.

[eternalrest]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Dreamer,

Did you know that 12 steps/AA has been ruled to be a religion by the 7th and 9th Circuit Courts...it will probably never make it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court would agree, so no one is taking it there.

Did you know that the Supreme Court does not have to hear a case. The Supreme Court may say...the state has ruled and it is a state's right issue...then where is your fight?

Do you honestly believe that the Supreme Court will look at 42 states that ban same sex marriage and California and then say...well of course we should just let all the same sex couples get married and the the states can take a hike.

Same Sex marriage is at the end of the line for a reason.

Then why does France have plans to do so soon?

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by eternalrest

Then why does France have plans to do so soon?

Eternal,

France is France. The United States is the United States not Washington D.C. Here is the best I can come up with..

La structure française de gouvernement est très centralisée. Le gouvernement peut fixer les normes universelles qui s'appliquent dans l'ensemble de la France. Il a été mon expérience que les départements ne sont pas comme des états aux USA. Ils ont peu de puissance de changer ce qui est placé par le gouvernement national. Cela dit, le Français ne se reposent pas autour si le gouvernement national fait quelque chose qu'ils n'aiment pas. En 1995, la France était juste au sujet de l'arrêt par des grèves et des protestations contre les politiques du gouvernement nouveau-élu de Chirac.

Habituellement, la plus grande ville dans un département est le capital, et a le Préfecture le bureau de gouvernement, où les choses aiment des passeports, des enregistrements de voiture, les permis des conducteurs et des papiers résidents sont traités. Note: Certaines de ce qui obtiennent traités où a été changé dans 2003. Quand vous devez obtenir n'importe lequel de ce ci-dessus fait, il y aura probablement beaucoup d'écritures. " une forme pour tout " semble être la devise de la bureaucratie française. Rien n'est venu soit traité à moins que toutes les questions soient répondues par une forme. Il y a un processus, cela que je n'ai pas figuré dehors, qui en doit être suivi afin des écritures gouvernement-connexes pour obtenir fait en France.

OK.....

[tqualey]

Hi, CopticChristian,

As a mono-lingual...who sometimes has trouble with English ... I would appreciate a translation. Thanks.

God bless

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Eternal,

France is France. The United States is the United States not Washington D.C. Here is the best I can come up with..

La structure française de gouvernement est très centralisée. Le gouvernement peut fixer les normes universelles qui s'appliquent dans l'ensemble de la France. Il a été mon expérience que les départements ne sont pas comme des états aux USA. Ils ont peu de puissance de changer ce qui est placé par le gouvernement national. Cela dit, le Français ne se reposent pas autour si le gouvernement national fait quelque chose qu'ils n'aiment pas. En 1995, la France était juste au sujet de l'arrêt par des grèves et des protestations contre les politiques du gouvernement nouveau-élu de Chirac.

Habituellement, la plus grande ville dans un département est le capital, et a le Préfecture le bureau de gouvernement, où les choses aiment des passeports, des enregistrements de voiture, les permis des conducteurs et des papiers résidents sont traités. Note: Certaines de ce qui obtiennent traités où a été changé dans 2003. Quand vous devez obtenir n'importe lequel de ce ci-dessus fait, il y aura probablement beaucoup d'écritures. " une forme pour tout " semble être la devise de la bureaucratie française. Rien n'est venu soit traité à moins que toutes les questions soient répondues par une forme. Il y a un processus, cela que je n'ai pas figuré dehors, qui en doit être suivi afin des écritures gouvernement-connexes pour obtenir fait en France.

OK.....

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by tqualey

Hi, CopticChristian,

As a mono-lingual...who sometimes has trouble with English ... I would appreciate a translation. Thanks.

God bless

The point is that France and the United States speak different languages and have different governments. What France does is what France does...

The French government structure is very centralized. The government is able to set universal standards that apply throughout France. It has been my experience that the departments are not like states in the US. They have little power to change what is set by the national government. That said, the French don't sit around if the national government does something they don't like. In 1995, France was just about shutdown by strikes and protests against the policies of the newly-elected Chirac government.

Usually, the largest city in a department is the capital, and has the Préfecture, the government office, where things like passports, car registrations, drivers' licenses and resident papers are processed. Note: Some of what get processed where was changed in 2003. When you need to get any of the above done, there will likely be a lot of paperwork. "A form for everything" seems to be the motto of the French bureaucracy. Nothing came be processed unless all of the questions are answered by a form. There is a process, that I have not figured out, that must be followed in order for any government-related paperwork to get done in France.

Why France does what France does has little to do with the USA.....

[tqualey]

Hi, CopticChristian,

Thank you very much.

Actually, from my experience (Mexico, Panama, EuroZone) each country is really quite different from the US ... and when the US Customs Agent is checking your passport and says, "Welcome home!" it really feels very good!

Hey, does the Mod know that we have Irish emotocoms ... but, no US ones?!
God bless

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

The point is that France and the United States speak different languages and have different governments. What France does is what France does...



Why France does what France does has little to do with the USA.....

[Contarini]

Originally Posted by eternalrest

Perhaps a Catholic theologian could comment.

Do We Have a Pro-Life ‘Good War’ and an Anti-SSM ‘Bad War’?http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...r-david-french

I think French nails it. It's not that conservative Christians should stop opposing same-sex marriage--it isn't marriage and can never be, and we shouldn't give in to cultural pressure to pretend it is--but we need on the one hand to give it a lower priority than issues having more directly to do with human life and dignity (abortion, war, torture, human trafficking, etc.), and on the other to broaden the focus by upholding (and most importantly living out) an orthodox Christian concept of marriage and sexuality across the board.

One of the things that first drew me to Catholicism was that Catholics did both of these things--they cared about social justice issues that weren't politically "right wing," and they had a sexual morality that made difficult demands of everyone in a coherent and spiritually challenging way.

Edwin

[Contarini]

Originally Posted by LJH_80

The difference between human trafficking and homosexuality is that nobody is trying to tell us that human trafficking is okay.

That is certainly true.

Yes, dealing in child prostitutes is terrible, but the pimps and the customers both go to hell, while the traumatized children have a chance to go to Heaven, and so it all works out in the end.

That's callous. Going to hell is not "OK." Nor is having your life scarred and degraded OK, even if you "have a chance to go to heaven." Ivan Karamazov, where are you when we need you?

No action on our part is required, we only need a vague sense of disapproval to be morally correct and achieve our own salvation.

It's hard to believe that you actually mean this. This sounds like a caricature.

If you can look at human beings suffering and being abused and not feel as if action on your part is required, then you are far from Jesus.

You make it sound as if "being morally correct and achieving our salvation" are somehow abstract matters of jumping through arbitrary hoops, when in fact they are about allowing the Spirit of God to mold us into the likeness of Jesus.

And Jesus didn't just indulge in "vague moral disapproval." The Spirit of God was upon him and anointed him to preach good news for the poor, to proclaim release to the captives and sight to the blind, to free the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor. . . .

And to be saved is to allow God to make us the kind of people who do these things as well.

I don't claim to be a good example of this--I'm much better at talking than doing, and when I have the chance to do anything decisive I usually manage to argue myself out of it.

Edwin

[eternalrest]

Originally Posted by Contarini

I think French nails it. It's not that conservative Christians should stop opposing same-sex marriage--it isn't marriage and can never be, and we shouldn't give in to cultural pressure to pretend it is--but we need on the one hand to give it a lower priority than issues having more directly to do with human life and dignity (abortion, war, torture, human trafficking, etc.), and on the other to broaden the focus by upholding (and most importantly living out) an orthodox Christian concept of marriage and sexuality across the board.

One of the things that first drew me to Catholicism was that Catholics did both of these things--they cared about social justice issues that weren't politically "right wing," and they had a sexual morality that made difficult demands of everyone in a coherent and spiritually challenging way.

Edwin

On the other hand, there is a relationship between same-sex marriage and other social evils. For example, people usually analyze prisoners based on racial demographics, but between 80-90% of all prisoners have been previously abused. Same-sex marriage weakens marriage and goes jointly with a culture of cohabitation and nontraditional families; this dramatically raises the likelihood of abuse of children, which increases the number of people who will commit crimes. Perhaps these links should also be a focus.

[Wampa]

The picture referenced says far more about the writer than it ever could about Christians.

The writer claims to have "seen more in the news and online about this silly rainbow cookie over the past two days than I have ever seen in my entire life concerning [hungry children & human trafficking]".

That's not a description of the objective reality, but a description of the writer's narrow and uninformed information-gathering process. Before I became Christian, I held these same ill-informed views. When the mainstream media is your only source of information about Christianity (as it was mine), you will end up with this kind of ignorant belief. Once I came into the Church and started learning about all of the facets of Christian life, I finally understood that all of these things were happening all around me simultaneously, I was just unaware because I willfully chose not to see it (by choosing the information sources that I did).

In opposition to the writer's "data", I've heard about lots of Catholic social service efforts in just the last week on Relevant Radio, and I had never even heard of the "cookie" story until I read this thread.

[RobbyS]

Originally Posted by CopticChristian

Eternal,

Slavery, Abortion, Human trafficking have nothing to do with traditional marriage and less to do with same sex marriage. The support you say that has been lost for traditional marriage is mirrored by the 42 states that ban same sex marriage....

Slavery is a human phenomenon based on living not on using our sex organs

Abortion is a problem with those that are able to use their sex organs to procreate

Human trafficking is slavery and not based on sex organs although I understand prostitution is part of this...

Same sex marriage is based on using sex organs, for those that cannot procreate and I am not sure, but is there, homosexual human trafficking?

You are wrong that the support for traditional marriage has lost ground, when you see that 42 states ban this. Same Sex marriage is not a fight, it is a plea for something that homosexuals have no right to...that is my opinion and the opinion of 42 states...

We war on the side of humanity to fight slavery, abortion, human traficking...

Who wages the war for same sex marriage....? and why is it bad?

Why have same sex marriage? What makes two men to couple in our society is as often as not what led Jerry Sandusky to do his thing. Of course, presently, convenion limits this, but as the 20th century showed us, moral converted can be laid aside in a moment.

In ancient Greek society of course, what Sandusky did was an established institution. Pederasty as an established custom. You seem to want to bring back that society and say. no this Christian thing, which does restrain this stuff, was all a mistake. IAC, yes, there is a link to slavery. Women and boys were “imported” into the Middle East to satisfy the sexual needs of their customers. In America, it was done, but more circumscribed by Christian morality. Fact is that in Islam, asceticism is not a virtue, at least not in the same way we under stand the term.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by RobbyS

Why have same sex marriage? What makes two men to couple in our society is as often as not what led Jerry Sandusky to do his thing. Of course, presently, convenion limits this, but as the 20th century showed us, moral converted can be laid aside in a moment.

In ancient Greek society of course, what Sandusky did was an established institution. Pederasty as an established custom. You seem to want to bring back that society and say. no this Christian thing, which does restrain this stuff, was all a mistake. IAC, yes, there is a link to slavery. Women and boys were “imported” into the Middle East to satisfy the sexual needs of their customers. In America, it was done, but more circumscribed by Christian morality. Fact is that in Islam, asceticism is not a virtue, at least not in the same way we under stand the term.

Robby,

I'm on the side of the OHCAC...or have you not noticed...

Are you posting to me?

Maybe it is the quote function....

Who is the you, that you are addressing....