I don't know what to believe anymore #2: Question 1: regarding the apostles' death

minichibi · #1 Jul 16, '12, 5:43 pm

OK. Sorry for my previous post with a whole flood of questions, following suggestions, I'm going to ask them one by one... the one that appears to bother me the most is this:

Here you are:

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God? The only argument I have is that the early Christians were killed and persecuted for believing in Christ and that nobody would die if it wasn't true, but I can't see any documents, anything at all proving that Peter was crucified upside down, Paul had his head cut off, John was exiled, and about James, the brother of Jesus, Josephus says he was stoned for breaking Jewish laws (which is contrary to what the tradition says that James was killed for saying Jesus was God, right?)

Thank you a lot for your time

steve b · #2 Jul 16, '12, 7:09 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

OK. Sorry for my previous post with a whole flood of questions, following suggestions, I'm going to ask them one by one... the one that appears to bother me the most is this:

Here you are:

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God? The only argument I have is that the early Christians were killed and persecuted for believing in Christ and that nobody would die if it wasn't true, but I can't see any documents, anything at all proving that Peter was crucified upside down, Paul had his head cut off, John was exiled, and about James, the brother of Jesus, Josephus says he was stoned for breaking Jewish laws (which is contrary to what the tradition says that James was killed for saying Jesus was God, right?)

Thank you a lot for your time

he names 7 others in his history, who were called Jesus. From my copy

Jesus Christ pg 379
Jesus son of Phabet pg 467
Jesus son of Sapphias pg 497
Jesus son of Ananus pg 582
Jesus brother of Onias pg 316
Jesus son of Gamaliel pg 424
Jesus son of Damneus pg 424
Jesus son of Gamala pg 10

If you don't have a copy of this work, and can't flip to those pages, I found a link where you can read online, what he says about Jesus Christ. On page 381 which isn't in the following link, is a full page drawing of the crucifixion.

The following comes from Book XVIII, Ch 3, paragraph 3 "Antiquities of theJews"
I left the footnotes operational

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wiseman, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of theJews and many of the Gentiles.He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate,at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross,(9)those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10)as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

From:
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

As you know, Josephus was a Jewish historian, not a Christian. Jesus the Christ is a real historical person. Fortold, by the prophets. He really lived, worked miracles and inumerable wonders, died on a cross, was buried, and he resurrected from the dead on the 3rd day..

Living Stats · #3 Jul 16, '12, 7:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

and about James, the brother of Jesus, Josephus says he was stoned for breaking Jewish laws (which is contrary to what the tradition says that James was killed for saying Jesus was God, right?

Well that actually would be blasphemous to Jewish laws, that is, saying Jesus was God.

Taestron · #4 Jul 16, '12, 7:19 pm

The important thing to remember about Josephus is that he is writing for a Roman audience which wouldn't care the specifics about why James was killed. It was enough to say that James broke Jewish laws which claiming Jesus as God would have been just that. So Josephus can actually provide good evidence to suggest that Christianity was persecuted by the Jews in the first century. A quick note about John the Baptist, he was very popular even after his death. If you read the gospel of John, you might notice the author highlighting John the Baptist's subordinance to Jesus on multiple occasions. Most Biblical scholars would say that the Gospel of John was written toward the end of the 1st century, so this tells us that there was still a popular figure 50+ years after his death. This combined with the fact that the Baptist was never able to be condemned unlike Jesus would make it more likely that Josephus would write about him rather than Jesus.

As far as historical documentation is concerned. There are letters written by Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan showing the Christians were not the most popular of religious sects. These don't mention any of the apostles (they were written early 2nd century) but they give good historical record of the notoriety of the Christians at the turn of the century. Also, given the general agreement of Emperor Nero's mental quirks, it is not hard to believe that he instituted a persecution of Christians around the time of Peter's and Paul's death in Rome.

I can't give you any historical documentation for Jesus' divinity other than the Bible and other early Christian sources. But there are very good reasons to think that these accurately preserve history. I will point out that the four gospels were based off of eyewitness accounts. But if you read the NT, does it really seem like the kind of religion that is designed to give a human control over its adherents? If it doesn't you should ask what possible reason those eyewitnesses would have to lie. Hope that helps.

God bless you and may you find the peace of truth.

George Stegmeir · #5 Jul 16, '12, 7:22 pm

Are you reading Josephus in the original Latin or in translation? If in translation, You have to make sure it is not a translation from one of the many Medieval Latin transcripts in which scribes added material not in the earliest copies.
Secondly, it is obvious that you don't realize that at the time of Christ, the first name Jesus was quite common in the Palestine region. It was as common as William or Joseph is today. So, references to any Jesus other than Jesus the Gallalean means someone other than Christ.
When reading ancient material, you have to be familiar with the secular history surrounding it, otherwise it is too easy to be led astray- especially by people who are averse to Christianity and twist secular history to their ends.

Gorgias · #6 Jul 16, '12, 7:43 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God?

Well, what's your standard of proof? If Jesus lived in the 21st century, you might look for eyewitnesses, or a YouTube video, and require that as sufficient proof. However, if Jesus lived in the 19th century, then no eyewitnesses would be alive today, and no video or audio evidence would be available. Would you then conclude that Jesus did not exist? Of course not ... you would accept a different standard of evidence.

How about if Jesus lived in the 9th century? Would your standard of proof be different, then? After all, the only documentation that would be available would be more likely to be available for a 19th century Jesus than a 9th century Jesus! So, does the existence of less documentation mean that it's any less likely that Jesus existed? Of course not -- again, you would modify your standard for sufficient evidence.

So, considering that Jesus lived in the 1st century A.D., and considering the ways that information was collected and retained back then, you need an appropriate standard for what you'll accept as sufficient proof. Does that mean that it's any less likely that Jesus actually lived? Of course not. But, you would be unfair, and would be being unreasonable, to hold historical figures from past eras to the same standard that you hold for things in the contemporary era that you wish to "prove"...!

jochoa · #7 Jul 16, '12, 8:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God?

Thank you a lot for your time

Excellent and very understandable question, my friend! I am sorry for the struggles of faith. May your journey to Heaven be as peaceful as possible.

To know that Jesus is God, do the following:
1. Recognize that Heaven, simply stated is the free-willed experience of limitless happiness without ever losing peace for all eternity. Ask yourself do you want that.
2. Recognize that patience gets peace and kindness gets happiness. Since Heaven is the communion of free-willed people, the "citizens" must want to be perfectly patient and kind to maintain and build a community of limitless happiness with unbreakable peace. Ask yourself if you desire growing in patience and kindness for the sake of greater happiness and unbreakable peace in the society.
3. Become unconditionally perfectly patient and kind for happiness without losing peace in any relationships.

If you do those, the following revelation will occur:
The Teachings and life of Jesus Christ will be revealed as the pinnacle of common sense. At this point, you will have the free-willed choice of crediting Jesus and His Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church for the knowledge OR some abstract natural progression of life.

Thank you very much for the excellent food for thought!

thistle · #8 Jul 18, '12, 5:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

OK. Sorry for my previous post with a whole flood of questions, following suggestions, I'm going to ask them one by one... the one that appears to bother me the most is this:

Here you are:

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God? The only argument I have is that the early Christians were killed and persecuted for believing in Christ and that nobody would die if it wasn't true, but I can't see any documents, anything at all proving that Peter was crucified upside down, Paul had his head cut off, John was exiled, and about James, the brother of Jesus, Josephus says he was stoned for breaking Jewish laws (which is contrary to what the tradition says that James was killed for saying Jesus was God, right?)

Thank you a lot for your time

Swiss Guy · #9 Jul 19, '12, 8:43 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by minichibi

OK. Sorry for my previous post with a whole flood of questions, following suggestions, I'm going to ask them one by one... the one that appears to bother me the most is this:

Here you are:

Q. How can I be sure Jesus really resurrected and even that Jesus is God? The only argument I have is that the early Christians were killed and persecuted for believing in Christ and that nobody would die if it wasn't true, but I can't see any documents, anything at all proving that Peter was crucified upside down, Paul had his head cut off, John was exiled, and about James, the brother of Jesus, Josephus says he was stoned for breaking Jewish laws (which is contrary to what the tradition says that James was killed for saying Jesus was God, right?)

Thank you a lot for your time

Another argument is that the Apostles were scared and turned their backs on Christ when he was experiencing his Passion, and they were very sad after he was crucified. But they became joyful later and were willing to endure persecution.

danserr · #10 Jul 19, '12, 11:29 am

I posted this on your other thread before I saw that you had started a new one for this here, so here is the link to my initial post.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...=694528&page=2