Is it wrong not to have children?

[Em_in_FL]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

Thank you for all the replies. They do make me think.

I spoke with a priest today. It was a very good discussion. My wife could not make it as she was at work. I did discuss the conversation with her on her lunch break.

To change the subject slightly... When I chose my profession, law enforcement, I felt a calling towards that profession. I felt a desire towards being a police officer. I love my job. I try to do my job in the glory of God and with his direction. I even applied to a department in another State that "I wanted to live in." I didn't get that job and felt that God didn't want me to live in that State. I try to be open to God’s will.

With that said, if I, or my wife, have never had that desire or "calling" to be parents, do we attempt to have children? Just to make an argument, if a person does not have a desire to be a priest/sister, get married, stay single, have kids, etc, should he/she still do so? If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

Then again, maybe He is calling us to be parents or I wouldn't have so many questions We do intend to pray over this matter.

Thank you again.

The "calling" to have children is inherent in the Sacrament of Marriage. Marriage is "ordered" toward procreation.
Infertile couples deal with this through great suffering...

Originally Posted by monicatholic

If you're married
and dont want children
for entirely selfish reasons (your admission)
and your wife doesnt want children for ( apparently) NOT grave reason

Then you're mis-using nfp
and mistaken about the meaning of marriage.

If the Church ( by Divine Inspiration and on Holy Tradition) asserts that marriage is ordered to the procreation of children then desiring children for that reason alone is NO SMALL OR INVALID REASON to desire children. It's a perfectly valid place to start to begin to see one's own failings of generosity. To want to be in obedience and submission to church teaching is a great place to begin to pray, " Lord, give me a generous and self sacrificing heart."

This... exactly.

In fact, the Catechism spells things out pretty clearly:

2368 A particular aspect of this responsibility concerns the regulation of procreation. For just reasons, spouses may wish to space the births of their children. It is their duty to make certain that their desire is not motivated by selfishness but is in conformity with the generosity appropriate to responsible parenthood.

This is the moral criteria necessary for using NFP.

[Della]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

Thank you for all the replies. They do make me think.

I spoke with a priest today. It was a very good discussion. My wife could not make it as she was at work. I did discuss the conversation with her on her lunch break.

To change the subject slightly... When I chose my profession, law enforcement, I felt a calling towards that profession. I felt a desire towards being a police officer. I love my job. I try to do my job in the glory of God and with his direction. I even applied to a department in another State that "I wanted to live in." I didn't get that job and felt that God didn't want me to live in that State. I try to be open to God’s will.

With that said, if I, or my wife, have never had that desire or "calling" to be parents, do we attempt to have children? Just to make an argument, if a person does not have a desire to be a priest/sister, get married, stay single, have kids, etc, should he/she still do so? If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

Then again, maybe He is calling us to be parents or I wouldn't have so many questions We do intend to pray over this matter.

Thank you again.

Faith can have its "sense" side, no doubt about it, when following God's will for us, but in matters of morality, which this is, we follow the Church not our feelings. Still, the Church does not demand that couples have children, rather it asks us to be open to having them because the union of a man and a woman is, by its very nature procreative--it's one of the reasons marriage is heterosexual--to carry on the human race.

Most of your fears are only that--fears. And what are fears but bringing to the present what we cannot control about the future and making it a stumblingblock to trust, to faith, to hope. If no one wanted kids you and I would not be here, yes? We need to consider whether or not what we have is so important it cannot be shared with another one or two other persons, as well.

Praying about it can really only lead to one conclusion, whether you have children or not--that trusting in God trumps any plans we make or any fears or any hanging onto what we have believing God cannot provide better for us than we believe possible. In any case, indeed, you need to pray and you need to continue to talk to your priest. God bless you both.

[SonCatcher]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

To change the subject slightly... When I chose my profession, law enforcement, I felt a calling towards that profession. I felt a desire towards being a police officer. I love my job. I try to do my job in the glory of God and with his direction. I even applied to a department in another State that "I wanted to live in." I didn't get that job and felt that God didn't want me to live in that State. I try to be open to God’s will.

It seems you understand the basics. Your desire for your career is indeed one indication of a calling. However, as you noted, not all of your desires are met in the way you hope (not being able to transfer to the location of your choice).

With that said, if I, or my wife, have never had that desire or "calling" to be parents, do we attempt to have children? Just to make an argument, if a person does not have a desire to be a priest/sister, get married, stay single, have kids, etc, should he/she still do so? If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

There is a bit of Southern wisdom (I don't know if it really is Southern - it just sounds Southern to me ) that goes "Having children isn't something you try for. Kids just happen."

The circumstance I heard it pertaining to was regarding a couple who were struggling with infertility (encouraging the wound-up would-be parents to relax). However, there is applicability here, too.

After our first two children, my wife was not particularly eager for another child (as pleasant as the are, they are still a lot of work). I wasn't in a particular hurry to have another, either, but was open. At some point, however, she discerned she needed to also be open to the possibility of another child. We then tucked away the charts. A few months later, God did bless us with another pregnancy. Sadly, He called this child to Him just as we were getting used to the idea.

For my wife, the key to her change was trust in God's provision and wisdom.

Then again, maybe He is calling us to be parents or I wouldn't have so many questions We do intend to pray over this matter.

Your questioning is a natural part of the discernment process, just as much as desire is.

Thank you again.

You're welcome.

[lifeisbeautiful]

Here is something that might help support what you heard on the radio:

Pope Pius XII Allocution to midwives, October 29, 1951.

The mere fact that husband and wife do not offend the nature of the act and are even ready to accept and bring up the child, who, notwithstanding their precautions, might be born, would not be itself sufficient to guarantee the rectitude of their intention and the unobjectionable morality of their motives.
The reason is that marriage obliges the partners to a state of life, which even as it confers certain rights so it also imposes the accomplishment of a positive work concerning the state itself. In such a case, the general principle may be applied that a positive action may be omitted if grave motives, independent of the good will of those who are obliged to perform it, show that its performance is inopportune, or prove that it may not be claimed with equal right by the petitioner—in this case, mankind.
The matrimonial contract, which confers on the married couple the right to satisfy the inclination of nature, constitutes them in a state of life, namely, the matrimonial state. Now, on married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the <bonum prolis>. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.
Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.

And, of course, the Catechism is a great source. Em posted 2368, here is another relevant point:

2371 "Let all be convinced that human life and the duty of transmitting it are not limited by the horizons of this life only: their true evaluation and full significance can be understood only in reference to man's eternal destiny."161

God bless you for seeking His will! I know it is already counter-cultural to use NFP instead of ABC, and it is great that you guys are in obedience to the Church in this area, but yes, we do need to have just/unselfish reasons to avoid children in marriage. Children are truly blessings, be not afraid!

[Et Cetera]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

Thank you for all of the comments thus far.
We've had these conversations in the past and I opened it up on a walk again tonight. To be fair, if I had to choose one way or the other, I too lean towards not having children, but am more open to them than my wife. My reasons are entirely selfish on my part.

My wife stated that she has never had any desire to be a mother. She did not like baby sitting. We both can only stand being around children for a short time. She also stated that if she has a child, she does not want someone else to raise him/her (i.e. babysitter). However, she loves her job and does not want to be a stay at home mom. There are other reasons, including some selfish reasons that we both have.

It seems that if we would decide to have a child right now, we would only be doing it because we feel that others or the church thinks that we are supposed to have them...

Again, thank you for the comments.

If you don't want kids and are happy with your life now, then don't change things. Seriously, kids aren't for everyone. Everyone has different desires. If you're both happy, then keep being happy and enjoy your life. If others criticize you for your choices, then tell them to mind their own business.

[Et Cetera]

Also, if you both don't really want kids, then it's not really fair to the kids to have them. I think in your case this is a leave well enough alone deal. You both are happy without kids and you like your jobs, so just carry on. Don't let others tell you how to live your life; it's no one else's business. This kind of stuff is why I left organized religion. You don't have to have kids in order to be a good, productive member of society. Best of luck with your decision, but keep in mind that if your wife (despite her wishes) decides to have children, things could really go awry in your marriage and with your personal happiness. Sometimes we need to go on our gut instinct and realize that what works for one person doesn't work for another. Sorry if I sound like I'm being harsh toward you, it's more the authoritative "have kids" attitude of the forum and religion that has me upset.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

My wife and I have been married for 13 years. We do not have children. My wife does not want to have children. I really don't care either way. We are practicing NFP and have decided that if she gets pregnant, it's God's will.

I was listening to the local Catholic radio channel today. I don't remember the exact program. The way they were talking made me think that it is wrong for married couples, especially Catholic couples, not to have (let alone want) children.

What are your thoughts?

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/morality/family/natural.htm see B. The four "indications".

The Medical indication [for NFP] is a serious danger to the health or the life of the mother, diagnosed by a doctor, qualified either from a scientific point of view or from a moral point of view. In such a case the obligation "of providing for the preservation of mankind" (621) ceases, because a woman is not obliged, by the matrimonial contract, to expose herself to dangers or injury which are not ordinarily part of maternity (Courier de Rome, June 1991, p.2).

(Reference: No. 621 in Papal Teaching: Matrimony. Selected and arranged by the Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, trans. Michael J. Byrnes. Boston: St. Paul Books, 1963.)

It may indeed become absolutely necessary, especially because of the "medical indication", to avoid the conception of a child. It is then that the Church and ethical medical science recommend complete abstinence as the safest solution, providing it, too, can be kept without sin.

From Address to Midwives, Pope Pius XII:

The reason is that marriage obliges the partners to a state of life, which even as it confers certain rights so it also imposes the accomplishment of a positive work concerning the state itself. In such a case, the general principle may be applied that a positive action may be omitted if grave motives, independent of the good will of those who are obliged to perform it, show that its performance is inopportune, or prove that it may not be claimed with equal right by the petitioner—in this case, mankind.

The matrimonial contract, which confers on the married couple the right to satisfy the inclination of nature, constitutes them in a state of life, namely, the matrimonial state. Now, on married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason, would be a sin against the very nature of married life.
Serious motives, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called "indications," may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to the full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.

~ Address to Midwives, Given by His Holiness Pope Pius XII, 29 October 1951

[TomFromMD]

When I'm asked if my wife and I are going to have more kids, I generally respond "no...God willing."

I don't feel called to have any more children, and neither does my wife. If one comes anyway, we'll love him or her.

Be open to God, and if or when you feel a calling to have children, be honest with your wife about it. Ask her to do the same with you. If you truly feel a calling to not have children right now, I don't think anyone on this board should talk you into it.

[bstorm]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

Thank you for all the replies. They do make me think.

I spoke with a priest today. It was a very good discussion. My wife could not make it as she was at work. I did discuss the conversation with her on her lunch break.

To change the subject slightly... When I chose my profession, law enforcement, I felt a calling towards that profession. I felt a desire towards being a police officer. I love my job. I try to do my job in the glory of God and with his direction. I even applied to a department in another State that "I wanted to live in." I didn't get that job and felt that God didn't want me to live in that State. I try to be open to God’s will.

With that said, if I, or my wife, have never had that desire or "calling" to be parents, do we attempt to have children? Just to make an argument, if a person does not have a desire to be a priest/sister, get married, stay single, have kids, etc, should he/she still do so? If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

Then again, maybe He is calling us to be parents or I wouldn't have so many questions We do intend to pray over this matter.

Thank you again.

Just a simple observation from me: For somebody who does not "feel" the calling to have children and is satisfied without them, you are sure spending a lot of time thinking about having them, even to the point of writing about it on the message boards, discussing it with the priest, and talking a lot about it to your wife. Are you sure you do not have the calling to be a parent?

I wish you and your wife the best.

[Sillara]

The default for married couples is to have children. It is the natural order of the sacrament. This is not to say that there may not be times and places where that is either impossible (as for infertile couples) or imprudent (those with JUST reasons to postpone children).

There is no need for a particular "call" to have children. That is assumed in the "call" to marriage.

[ThyKingdomCome]

What others have said is correct. The call to marriage, IS the call to have the children that God wishes to bless them with. Having children is the second purpose of marriage. A couple who has no intention of ever having children at the time of their wedding, is therefore being untruthful when they state in their wedding vows that they will accept children. This is problematic for the very sacrament of marriage itself. So if your only reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy is that you don't WANT children, then you are not specifically thwarting the purpose of marriage. There are serious and valid reasons for a couple to avoid pregnancy, but lack of desire for children is not one of them.

That said, the discovery that you are in fact CALLED to parenthood simply by virtue of your marriage does not necessarily mean that you WILL have children. For one, you don't know the state of your fertility, and there is no guarantee for any couple that they will have children even if they try constantly. Furthermore, you did not agree in your wedding vows to TRY to get pregnant, but to ACCEPT children. Acceptance is passive, and doesn't require you to try to conceive. So rather than feel like you must now try to get pregnant, you would only be expected to stop trying NOT to get pregnant. ie - put away the charts and just don't bother with nfp.

I am not going to tell you that this is what you MUST do. I haven't heard a sufficient reason to avoid pregnancy from what you've stated here. But obviously, I'm not in a position to judge something that is such a big deal from over here at my keyboard. Bring this to prayer and seek the advice of a trusted priest if needed.

[Vico]

Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome

What others have said is correct. The call to marriage, IS the call to have the children that God wishes to bless them with. Having children is the second purpose of marriage. A couple who has no intention of ever having children at the time of their wedding, is therefore being untruthful when they state in their wedding vows that they will accept children. This is problematic for the very sacrament of marriage itself. So if your only reason for using NFP to avoid pregnancy is that you don't WANT children, then you are not specifically thwarting the purpose of marriage. There are serious and valid reasons for a couple to avoid pregnancy, but lack of desire for children is not one of them.

That said, the discovery that you are in fact CALLED to parenthood simply by virtue of your marriage does not necessarily mean that you WILL have children. For one, you don't know the state of your fertility, and there is no guarantee for any couple that they will have children even if they try constantly. Furthermore, you did not agree in your wedding vows to TRY to get pregnant, but to ACCEPT children. Acceptance is passive, and doesn't require you to try to conceive. So rather than feel like you must now try to get pregnant, you would only be expected to stop trying NOT to get pregnant. ie - put away the charts and just don't bother with nfp.

I am not going to tell you that this is what you MUST do. I haven't heard a sufficient reason to avoid pregnancy from what you've stated here. But obviously, I'm not in a position to judge something that is such a big deal from over here at my keyboard. Bring this to prayer and seek the advice of a trusted priest if needed.

It is possible for a couple to validly marry, when they do not exclude accepting children occur that occur as a result of moral conjugal relations, even there is no specific desire for them. The matrimonial covenant requires the grant of the moral act proper to the generation of children. There are some that are infertile, which if disclosed in advance does not invalidate the marriage. Also, once validly married, it is not required to exercise those marital rights. Pope Pius explained that there are four indications which could be a basis for abstinence as well as exclusive use of NFP. There is also the case of abnormal risk of death in pregnancy, which eliminates the obligation of a married women to become pregnant. Also note that No. 24 of the Rite of Marriage is:

“The following question may be omitted if, for example, the couple is advanced in years.: “Will you accept children lovingly from God, and bring them up according to the law of Christ and his Church?”

[PrayHarder]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

You question reminds me of something a really good priest once told me. He said that he really had no desire to become a priest up through his first year in the seminary. But despite his lack of enthusiasm, he let God lead him through it all and he feels very lucky and blessed. Just goes to show that God knows what He's doing even if you don't think He does.

[Sullibe]

Originally Posted by runningreddog

With that said, if I, or my wife, have never had that desire or "calling" to be parents, do we attempt to have children? Just to make an argument, if a person does not have a desire to be a priest/sister, get married, stay single, have kids, etc, should he/she still do so? If God is really "calling us" to have children, wouldn't we have that desire?

To answer the particular bolded question: NO!

God "called us" to have children, 6 weeks after we were married. When I found out two months later (long story) I cried, for three days straight. I hadn't wanted children right away and was planning on only having 2 kids anyway. I was only 22. (He just turned 11, BTW, and there are now 4 more - the youngest is 10 1/2 mths)

I think the bigger question to ask yourself is why God called you and your wife to marriage? Because if God called you to marriage, then God calls you to be open to life. Yes, it's true, NFP still remains "open to life" by not using artificial contraception, but there's more to being open to life than just not using ABC - or rather using NFP to selfishly keep what you (royal you) want and stay in control. You have to be willing to let God make the ultimate decision, by prayerfully deciding whether or not the reasons behind your dilligent practice of NFP is for selfish reasons or serious/just reasons. Wanting to stay in control of your current lifestyle, IMHO, not a just reason. Not wanting to have children because everyone thinks you should, that's not a reason to actively TRY TO CONCEIVE, but it's also not a reason to try to avoid either.

Now it's absolutely true, if God REALLY REALLY wanted the two of you two have a baby, you'd already have one by now. But God wants the two of you to realize that, with the help of God's Grace and a little more TRUST in Him, everything will be okay if you let go of the "controls".

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

[He Man]

Originally Posted by Et Cetera

If you don't want kids and are happy with your life now, then don't change things. Seriously, kids aren't for everyone. Everyone has different desires. If you're both happy, then keep being happy and enjoy your life. If others criticize you for your choices, then tell them to mind their own business.

Kind of hard to be defensive when you post it on the internet and ask for advice...