Post Modern Theological Supports for Traditional Mass

[trickster]

Hello All. I have been absent for a while cause my focus has been on participating in a wonderful intensive course on creating a "Cosmic Mass" (from the Creation Spirituality theology of Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox) as well as attending some lectures from Diarmuid O'Murchu (Diarmuid O'Murchu, a member of the Sacred Heart Missionary Order, and a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin Ireland, is a social psychologist).

What these two threads of 'earth-based' theologieshave in common is the notion of humanity's form of worship long before the spoken word. The spoken word has only been (in evolutionary 12 or 14 billion years terms) a recent addition to our ability - as humans - to worship our Creator. What had caught my attention was the closeness in which the Creator was worshiped in His or Her "high" form of "all mighty". The awesomeness of God, the all mightiness" our smallness and insignficance is so richly reflected in the traditional mass and hence the traditional mass - in this respect - shares some qualities of post-modern interpretation.

Thoughts?


Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

[YoungTradCath]

[Khalid]

Matthew Fox is an excommunicated heretic, and his ideas (specifically "original blessing", not to mention the rest) are blasphemous. The translations his institute publishes (such as those of Meister Eckhart and Julian of Norwich) are distorted (if you can't read the originals, just compare them to the well-respected translations published in the Classics of Western Spirituality series), and his creed is New Age religion (a smattering of several, but most especially earth-based neopaganism, such as Wicca) in the shell of Catholic language.

Read Fr Mitch Pacwa's Catholics and the New Age, although he deals with "Father" Fox (it was written before he was defrocked and excommunicated, and became an Episcopalian) only in a very tangential manner (as Fox has always been outside of the mainstream for both New Agers and Catholics, but right at home amongst liberals who have erotic "liturgical dancing" as part of their services).

[MikeDunphy]

God is our Father, the Church is our Mother. Referring to our Creator as "Her" is a poor word choice.

Khalid has already commented on Fr. Fox. Here are some comments from the bishops of Spain on Fr. O'Murchu's book "Reframing Religious Life". Fr. O'Murchu encourages religious to leave Holy Mother Church. He is not a good one to take advice from.

To the extent "post-modern interpretation" instills in people an awareness of the power and glory of God, it does well. To the extent that it draws people away from the knowledge of God that He Himself has given through His Church, it does badly. Your two teachers have an insufficient respect for how God has chosen to reveal Himself. You need better teachers.

Originally Posted by trickster

Hello All. I have been absent for a while cause my focus has been on participating in a wonderful intensive course on creating a "Cosmic Mass" (from the Creation Spirituality theology of Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox) as well as attending some lectures from Diarmuid O'Murchu (Diarmuid O'Murchu, a member of the Sacred Heart Missionary Order, and a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin Ireland, is a social psychologist).

What these two threads of 'earth-based' theologies have in common is the notion of humanity's form of worship long before the spoken word. The spoken word has only been (in evolutionary 12 or 14 billion years terms) a recent addition to our ability - as humans - to worship our Creator. What had caught my attention was the closeness in which the Creator was worshiped in His or Her "high" form of "all mighty". The awesomeness of God, the all mightiness" our smallness and insignificance is so richly reflected in the traditional mass and hence the traditional mass - in this respect - shares some qualities of post-modern interpretation.

Thoughts?


Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother."
St. Cyprian of Carthage (+ AD 258)

[TrueLight]

The trickster is back to his old tricks.

[Iotaunum]

I have some thoughts.

This reminds me of an audio I had of the Summa theologica once. I loved reading the Summa and thought that I could also listen to parts while I walked or travelled. But the reader it seems, was of a liberal persuasion or had some other gripe against the Church and everywhere St Thomas would write "He" and "His" referring to God, the reader would change it to "She" and "Her". This made me so angry that I walked the rest thinking about how someone had given up their time to in some way pervert the writings of St Thomas and misrepresent his teachings.

This is the first time I have heard of a "Cosmic Mass" or "'earth-based' theology" but I am not shocked to hear they exist. I just wonder why this is posted under the "Traditional Catholicism" section of the forum.

[asia53]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

The trickster is back to his old tricks.

[trickster]

Originally Posted by YoungTradCath

Too funny YoungTradCath...you know the old "trickster" by now it seems... cheerz bud...

Bruce
Trickster

[trickster]

Originally Posted by Khalid

Matthew Fox is an excommunicated heretic, and his ideas (specifically "original blessing", not to mention the rest) are blasphemous. The translations his institute publishes (such as those of Meister Eckhart and Julian of Norwich) are distorted (if you can't read the originals, just compare them to the well-respected translations published in the Classics of Western Spirituality series), and his creed is New Age religion (a smattering of several, but most especially earth-based neopaganism, such as Wicca) in the shell of Catholic language.

The fact that the church declares one not to be in communion with Rome does not mean that there is no value in keeping an open mind to the concept proposals and thought processes leading to the "heretics" thinking, we do that all the time in trying to understand more clearly the work of leading protestant figures like Martin Luther, etc. I think the concept of "heretics" as bad people and labels like "blasphemous" are drama queen terms that belong to a time period more suitable left in the middle ages. Often heretics, who were much later recognized, have been successful in deepening our understanding, perceptions and interpretations of core church teachigns in a way that incorporates fully our experiential knowledge and body experiences as equal in formula to the leadings of the Holy Spirit and the inspiration of God, Jesus and our Church.

There is also value in earthbased spiritualities, that you use dramatic words like "neopaganism", "wicca" etc., as if they were bad. Wicca is very close to my native spirituality in that we acknowledge the life force of the Creator in all things...how can God be separate from his or her creation? Creation Spirituality in a Catholic context for me has been that "shell" or baseline that has allowed me to have a deeper experience of the church teaching as well as my own aboriginal spirituality.

So that is my take anyways Khalid, nice to hear from you again...I always come away from your writing with a very clear understanding of what side of the fence you sit on...

Originally Posted by Khalid

Read Fr Mitch Pacwa's Catholics and the New Age, although he deals with "Father" Fox (it was written before he was defrocked and excommunicated, and became an Episcopalian) only in a very tangential manner (as Fox has always been outside of the mainstream for both New Agers and Catholics, but right at home amongst liberals who have erotic "liturgical dancing" as part of their services).

You know Khalid, I never got the impression that Creation Spirituality is New Age...not that New Age is all bad, but we dismiss the whole gamut of wisdom in new age thinking because I believe that it dismisses universal truths in favour of a directionless relativsm which may or may not be spiritually nourishing to people... I don't think a total dismissal of New age influence is necessarily helpful in the conversation. Defrocked and excommunicated is one way fo seeing it, liberated and set free is another way of seeing the blessings of the chruch on Matthew...we agreed to disagree and we honour Matthew's freedom and supremacy of conscience to explore the path that he is on.

That "erotic liturgical dancing" is so off the mark. I am working on an Aboriginal Cosmic Mass myself as a supplementary "sacramental or devotional" that supports the liturgy and the core position of the Eucharist (i.e. outside the mass format on a Saturday night) as opposed to incorporated into the official liturgy which is our prayer as a global church. Anyways, hope those alternative perspectives on Matthew Fox'es work challenge you to see the positive in Creation Spirituality, as your thoughts - like always -inform and help develope my thinking too..

Cheerz Khalid.

Bruce
Trickster

[trickster]

Originally Posted by MikeDunphy

God is our Father, the Church is our Mother. Referring to our Creator as "Her" is a poor word choice.

Khalid has already commented on Fr. Fox. Here are some comments from the bishops of Spain on Fr. O'Murchu's book "Reframing Religious Life". Fr. O'Murchu encourages religious to leave Holy Mother Church. He is not a good one to take advice from.

To the extent "post-modern interpretation" instills in people an awareness of the power and glory of God, it does well. To the extent that it draws people away from the knowledge of God that He Himself has given through His Church, it does badly. Your two teachers have an insufficient respect for how God has chosen to reveal Himself. You need better teachers.

Hi Mike. Like I said to Khalid, I listen with an open mind and open heart to "heretics" and I find those working or dancing on the margins as particularly powerful "prophet like" disrupters, and in fact "tricksters", coyotes, ravens, in their own traditions. I am interested in your thoughts though when you say that the postmodern does install a sense of the greatness or allmightiness of God, the mystical side of our Catholic experience, etc. as for me premodern traditions (such as my own aboriginal spirituality) and to a great degree the traditional mass) ... the pre-modern says much the same as the postmodern.

HOwever, I agree with the idea that postmodern is a great loosening of orthodox paradoxes in favour of a greater weight of human experience as part of our creation fo theological understanding of age old teachings...and to that degree I think postmodernism becomes (if we let it) to become confusing, directionless, etc...and hence the need to take the tools and blessings from postmodern thinkers and anchor them ont he core teachings of our catechism, and have a wonderful time in working them through in our own prayerful reflections and study... so in that sense I am closer than you think on your second statement that postmodern theology often works in a "counter power" manner (i.e. trickster and contraire archetypes in american indian cosmology) and has the effect of drawing people away from the truth as understood and taught by our church...I agree with you on that...but I am not dogmatic about the idea of sticking only with traditional and "safe" Catholic spaces,....

Thanks again Mike.

"He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother."
St. Cyprian of Carthage (+ AD 258)[/quote]

[trickster]

Originally Posted by TrueLight

The trickster is back to his old tricks.

Hi TrueLight...thanks for the compliment...I refer to the mutual environment of respect we have for each other in our differing opinions...take care and "do carry on"...

Bruce
Trickster

[trickster]

Originally Posted by Iotaunum

I have some thoughts.

This reminds me of an audio I had of the Summa theologica once. I loved reading the Summa and thought that I could also listen to parts while I walked or travelled. But the reader it seems, was of a liberal persuasion or had some other gripe against the Church and everywhere St Thomas would write "He" and "His" referring to God, the reader would change it to "She" and "Her". This made me so angry that I walked the rest thinking about how someone had given up their time to in some way pervert the writings of St Thomas and misrepresent his teachings.

This is the first time I have heard of a "Cosmic Mass" or "'earth-based' theology" but I am not shocked to hear they exist. I just wonder why this is posted under the "Traditional Catholicism" section of the forum.

So perhaps this audio was not one of the ones you used for relaxation meditation, right Pope Benedict himself said that of course Catholics do not believe that God is male, and therefore I believe that we must honour the feminine in God and I do that personally in my own stuff by including the possibility of refering to our Creator as "female", but in formal context like Mass I am totally at home with the Our Father and the limited language we have to honour and worship our Creator in the male form...not a biggie for me...

Yeah, in terms of cosmic mass and earth based theologies, my point is that it is a lot closer to the wisdom and orientation honoured in the Tridentine Mass that current controversy and debate would lead us to believe. The mysticism of the saints as an example, is both honoured in our traditional Catholic views as well as an exploration of pertinent ideas (where peoples heads are at these days) through the full lives of the saints, defrocked from the mysticims, iconization of human lives that often make us fee that we cannot be saints, when in fact, when we are connected to Jesus we are saints.. that is my only reason for posting it in the traditional forum...traditional mass,e tc., catholicism is not ideas or forms stuck in the past, they are alive, well, and relevant in the world of 2012 and I am only suggesting that if we dropped the "them us" theological differentiations between progressive and orthodox Catholics, we might together find the timelessness and wisdom of our faith...does that make sense?

Bruce
Trickster

[Khalid]

I am us, and they are them.

Thank you for the compliment - if I know which side of the fence I'm on, the world should too. Too many problems to this very day have been caused by those, who when dealing with one side of the fence, talk out of one side of the mouth, and dealing with the other side of the fence, talk out of the other side of the mouth, often not even out of a malicious desire to deceive, but out of a real and legitimate, but greatly misguided, desire to make peace: "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God".

P.S. Be careful with your pronouns.

[MikeDunphy]

Originally Posted by trickster

Hi Mike. Like I said to Khalid, I listen with an open mind and open heart to "heretics" and I find those working or dancing on the margins as particularly powerful "prophet like" disrupters, and in fact "tricksters", coyotes, ravens, in their own traditions. I am interested in your thoughts though when you say that the postmodern does install a sense of the greatness or allmightiness of God, the mystical side of our Catholic experience, etc. as for me premodern traditions (such as my own aboriginal spirituality) and to a great degree the traditional mass) ... the pre-modern says much the same as the postmodern.

Sorry Bruce, I don't know that postmodern thought does that at all. I was taking your word for it, that the postmodern can instill some understanding of the awesomeness of God. That is good as far as it goes, and orthodox, but not enough. A communication of the goodness of God, and His desire for us to abandon our self-serving ways and partake of His holiness, is essential.

Originally Posted by trickster

HOwever, I agree with the idea that postmodern is a great loosening of orthodox paradoxes in favour of a greater weight of human experience as part of our creation fo theological understanding of age old teachings...and to that degree I think postmodernism becomes (if we let it) to become confusing, directionless, etc...and hence the need to take the tools and blessings from postmodern thinkers and anchor them ont he core teachings of our catechism, and have a wonderful time in working them through in our own prayerful reflections and study... so in that sense I am closer than you think on your second statement that postmodern theology often works in a "counter power" manner (i.e. trickster and contraire archetypes in american indian cosmology) and has the effect of drawing people away from the truth as understood and taught by our church...I agree with you on that...but I am not dogmatic about the idea of sticking only with traditional and "safe" Catholic spaces,....

I like the idea of anchoring your meditations on the core teachings of the catechism, as long as you are sincerely seeking the truth, and not playing some game where you twist words to misrepresent the teachings of the Catholic Church.

I'm not saying that you would do that at all. I just don't know what message outside the 'traditional and "safe" Catholic spaces' you are hoping to convey.

[Iotaunum]

Originally Posted by trickster

So perhaps this audio was not one of the ones you used for relaxation meditation, right Pope Benedict himself said that of course Catholics do not believe that God is male, and therefore I believe that we must honour the feminine in God and I do that personally in my own stuff by including the possibility of refering to our Creator as "female", but in formal context like Mass I am totally at home with the Our Father and the limited language we have to honour and worship our Creator in the male form...not a biggie for me...

Yeah, in terms of cosmic mass and earth based theologies, my point is that it is a lot closer to the wisdom and orientation honoured in the Tridentine Mass that current controversy and debate would lead us to believe. The mysticism of the saints as an example, is both honoured in our traditional Catholic views as well as an exploration of pertinent ideas (where peoples heads are at these days) through the full lives of the saints, defrocked from the mysticims, iconization of human lives that often make us fee that we cannot be saints, when in fact, when we are connected to Jesus we are saints.. that is my only reason for posting it in the traditional forum...traditional mass,e tc., catholicism is not ideas or forms stuck in the past, they are alive, well, and relevant in the world of 2012 and I am only suggesting that if we dropped the "them us" theological differentiations between progressive and orthodox Catholics, we might together find the timelessness and wisdom of our faith...does that make sense?

Bruce
Trickster

That was not my point. Of course traditional Catholic theology has always maintained that God is pure spirit and does not have a body. However the Scriptures inspired by God refer to God as “He”. The Holy Ghost is called “He” by His own inspiration of the Scriptures and the second person of the Blessed Trinity; Christ, is most certainly a male and referred to as he. The three persons are One God, not three. So where does that leave the second person, Christ, if we call God; “She”? Also, what God has revealed we have neither reason nor authority to change. Calling God “she” is wrong therefore on so many levels. I think it stems from the radical feminism, misguided as it is, and a sense of rebellion among liberals who love change for its own sake and move in every way against what has always been. Anyway, my main problem was that someone had misrepresented St Thomas, a traditional Catholic theologian, by changing his words – i.e reading out the opposite of what he wrote. He should call his work “my liberal version of St Thomas’s work” or “what Thomas should have said”. It was misleading.

Regarding the “cosmic mass and earth based theologies” – we will just have to disagree. I hold traditional Catholic theology and cannot understand why people chase after these new ideas. As regards the “them us” part – I cannot see how this type of pluralism you recommend to bring “progressive and orthodox Catholics” together can work. It is logically impossible. If one departs from traditional Catholic teaching then they no longer hold traditional Catholic teaching. They become liberals and progressivists.