Novus Ordo vs Lutheran Service

[ProVobis]

Originally Posted by Andre1000

Lol. A very old Lutheran Service looks almost like the EF.

Since Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, it's very likely the first Lutheran service was like the pre-Tridentine Mass. And it was also valid, by the way.

[ThatOneGuy92]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Since Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, it's very likely the first Lutheran service was like the pre-Tridentine Mass. And it was also valid, by the way.

But not legit. It was not too legit to quit.

[malphono]

Originally Posted by agnes therese

The exact same? Really?
They have real consecration; and valid Eucharist; the same readings; the same collects,prayer after communion, and closing prayers; the same Eucharistic prayers; the same penitential acts; the same "Gloria" and "Holy, Holy, Holy;" the same Mysteries of Faith; the same liturgical calendar . . . ?????

Are you sure it's the exact same as Holy Mass?

It seems to me the OP concerns the order of service. While we know that there are theological differences, the actual order of service is pretty much the same, at least these days. (I haven't been able to find a comparison of the pre- and post-1970 Lutheran services so I really cannot say what the differences between then-and now are, or who-borrowed-from-whom. But it's interesting that the photos I've seen all invariably show a versus populum table now, and I know that was not the case in the "old" version of the Lutheran service (at least not among the "High Church" factions). )

[malphono]

Originally Posted by ProVobis

Since Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, it's very likely the first Lutheran service was like the pre-Tridentine Mass. And it was also valid, by the way.

Whether it was actually "valid" depends, of course, on the intent of the priest (and at the very beginning it was a priest). The question then becomes, did Luther intend intend to do what the Church (and I don't mean his spin-off group) intended? It's an interesting question that can probably never be answered.

[pnewton]

Originally Posted by LatinCatholic1

Woah stop right there! Notice I said they " look the exact same ", I never said they are the exact same

Yes, I see the similarities between the Divine Service, the 1970 Missal, the 1962 Missal and even Mass as it existed for the last several hundred years. There may be other Protestants that also follow the Catholic Mass form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Service_(Lutheran)#cite_note-3

The link was helpful.

[liturgyluver]

Originally Posted by agnes therese

The exact same? Really?
They have real consecration; and valid Eucharist; the same readings; the same collects,prayer after communion, and closing prayers; the same Eucharistic prayers; the same penitential acts; the same "Gloria" and "Holy, Holy, Holy;" the same Mysteries of Faith; the same liturgical calendar . . . ?????

Are you sure it's the exact same as Holy Mass?

Actually, the answer to your question(s) in terms of the wording and rubrics is that many of the western Christian denominations have a generally indistinguishable Eucharistic Rite from the Catholic one, certainly in terms of the shape of the liturgy and much of the wording. In many cases the same Lectionary, and - before the new translation - the same mass settings were used (the Anglican and Lutheran congregational mass settings actually sound more traditional.)

This doesn't mean of course that as Catholics we regard the Eucharist as valid, but that wasn't the question that was asked.

[TimothyH]

Originally Posted by malphono

It seems to me the OP concerns the order of service. While we know that there are theological differences, the actual order of service is pretty much the same, at least these days. (I haven't been able to find a comparison of the pre- and post-1970 Lutheran services so I really cannot say what the differences between then-and now are, or who-borrowed-from-whom. But it's interesting that the photos I've seen all invariably show a versus populum table now, and I know that was not the case in the "old" version of the Lutheran service (at least not among the "High Church" factions). )

Luther was an Augustinian monk. Augustinian monks used a central freestanding altar, as have the Benedictines and Cistercians for many centuries. As far back as 1600 years, monastic communities have gathered around a free standing altar as an enclosed community.

An Abbey Church with such an altar consecrated in 1057 is pictured here.

Luther brought his Augustinian practices into the Lutheran Church, including the use of a freestanding altar and liturgy where the community which gathered around the altar.


-Tim-

[agnes therese]

Originally Posted by LatinCatholic1

Woah stop right there! Notice I said they " look the exact same ", I never said they are the exact same

If it looks "the exact same," it must have the exact same elements in the exact same order.

[malphono]

Originally Posted by TimothyH

Luther was an Augustinian monk. Augustinian monks used a central freestanding altar, as have the Benedictines and Cistercians for many centuries. As far back as 1600 years, monastic communities have gathered around a free standing altar as an enclosed community.

An Abbey Church with such an altar consecrated in 1057 is pictured here.

Luther brought his Augustinian practices into the Lutheran Church, including the use of a freestanding altar and liturgy where the community which gathered around the altar.


-Tim-

Yes I know. But one has always to keep in mind that a freestanding altar is NOT the same as a versus populum table.

[ThatOneGuy92]

Originally Posted by malphono

(I haven't been able to find a comparison of the pre- and post-1970 Lutheran services so I really cannot say what the differences between then-and now are, or who-borrowed-from-whom. But it's interesting that the photos I've seen all invariably show a versus populum table now, and I know that was not the case in the "old" version of the Lutheran service (at least not among the "High Church" factions). )

Ask, and ye shall receive
http://history.hanover.edu/texts/luthserv.html

[Chatter163]

The Catholic eucharistic prayers make the presence of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass apparent, whereas the Lutheran service books speak very generally of an offering (even using the word sacrifice once or twice), but certainly never the theology that the offering of the bread and wine of the euacharist is the ONE AND SAME Sacrfice as that of Calvary.

[TimothyH]

Originally Posted by malphono

Yes I know. But one has always to keep in mind that a freestanding altar is NOT the same as a versus populum table.

I'm sorry to have bored you.


-Tim-