t/j of family size?

[holyrood]

I was just reading the comment about family sizes dropping and some people thinking it's a disgrace to have large families.

I had 8 children by the time I was 33. I now have 9. Had my marriage been solid, I gladly would have had more. If I marry again soon enough, I have no hesitation about being open to more.

Amazingly, through the last 20+ years of child-rearing, I have gotten almost entirely positive comments on my large family, including from liberals, atheists and others from whom I wouldn't normally expect such positive comments.

Sadly....the negativity has come mainly from my Very Devout Catholic parents.

My mother prays the Rosary daily, is on church guilds, helps clean the church, goes to Perpetual Adoration, you name it. They took me to church every Sunday, Catholic schools, CCD, etc. So now, it appears I've become too Catholic for them. They, btw, were very upfront about using birth control and only ever wanting two children, three at most.

They have all kinds of great things to say about my siblings who are pierced, tattooed, ride motorcycles, throw kegger parties, and haven't seen the inside of a church in years. But when it comes to me, they have given huge sighs on finding out I'm pregnant again, criticized my parenting (for what it's worth, other people routinely tell me I have wonderful kids), and people at church have told me my mother makes disparaging comments about me 'with all those kids.'

I guess I'm curious if others have had similar experiences, of the criticisms coming from those they would have least expected to behave that way.

I'm interested in any explanation as to human nature, how people can be so critical of someone who lives exactly as those people profess to believe. (Some clarification, in addition to being professing Catholics attending mass weekly or even daily, my father is also a diagnosed alcoholic with a history of domestic abuse and even jail time for it. My mother is very much a co-dependent who has stayed in an abusive marriage for 50 years, which no doubt all has a profound impact on all of this.)

I'm curious how others handle criticisms of living their faith from those closest to them. I'd especially love to know if anyone else is in my position of being criticized for it by the very people who profess to believe and value it!

[TBenedicta]

I guess I'd just say to handle it with prayer. It's really the only way. You can respectfully say,

"Mom/Dad, this is my faith. This is my family. Here is the encyclical outlining why I live the way I do. It is important for me remain faithful to Church doctrine. You don't have to agree with me (though I pray that you one day will!) but I do ask that you respect me, my family, my faith, and my decisions. If you have anything negative to say, please keep silent out of respect. I want to have the best relationship I can with you, but your criticisms make it very hard to do that."

Some background: my mother was a practicing Catholic when I was born, and thus baptized me and my second-youngest brother Catholic. By the time my youngest two brothers were born, she had relinquished her faith and begun attending a nondenominational parish. Her having left the Church, she has a lot of negative things to say about it. She did her best to usher me into her new church. Unfortunately for her, I reverted to Catholicism in college, then dated and married a devout Catholic.

Now we are pregnant with our first child. My mom had had a pretty heated conversation with me some months ago. I had expressed financial concerns to her and she made an off-hand comment about how my husband and I won't ever have to worry about money in ten years. (He's a medical student and presumably she thinks he'll make a large salary in future.) I joked, "That doesn't really mean much to us. We like our simple lifestyle, and we'd rather focus more on family than monetary gain." She responded, "what does THAT mean? You ARE on birth control, aren't you? You don't want to be one of those weird families with a lot of kids, do you?"

Obviously, I was stunned by her negative reaction to such an innocent comment and told her that "those people" who have large families aren't "weird", that many of them are good and faithful people who simply love the Lord and trust in his blessings. I didn't get into specifics, but she came away pretty sure that I wasn't taking articial birth control. Of course, she also doesn't understand NFP and that, when practiced responsibly, it can be used to avoid pregnancy with much the same level of effectiveness as ABC. So basically, she came away from the conversation certain we were being reckless and irresponsible. (In her mind.) Nevermind that my husband and I had successfully used NFP to avoid pregnancy for the two years we'd been married thus far.

Anyway, I am pregnant now because in charting and praying one month, we realized we really didn't want to delay starting our family. We took a chance- not TTC but simply being less adherent to the rules of NFP, and of course the first time we did that we were pregnant! A huge blessing to us and an answer from God.

My mother? Her response ranged from "you weren't TRYING to get pregnant, were you?" to "I'm too young to be a grandma!" (I'm 23. She's 42.) to "I hope you plan on spacing out your kids and not having too many." She asked what I plan on doing about birth control in the future and I politely said "Mom, that's really not your concern. Your job is just to be HAPPY right now."

I've been praying for her heart to soften ever since. I believe God gives us the families he does for a reason- and that includes my dear mother and father. I know it's a trial to have difficult family members, especially ones that aren't supportive or can be downright cruel or hostile towards your very way of life. But again I say, the answer to this problem, as with most problems, is prayer and understanding. Peace to you!

[ryecroft]

Originally Posted by holyrood

I was just reading the comment about family sizes dropping and some people thinking it's a disgrace to have large families.
My mother prays the Rosary daily, is on church guilds, helps clean the church, goes to Perpetual Adoration, you name it. They took me to church every Sunday, Catholic schools, CCD, etc. So now, it appears I've become too Catholic for them. They, btw, were very upfront about using birth control and only ever wanting two children, three at most.

They have all kinds of great things to say about my siblings who are pierced, tattooed, ride motorcycles, throw kegger parties, and haven't seen the inside of a church in years. But when it comes to me, they have given huge sighs on finding out I'm pregnant again, criticized my parenting (for what it's worth, other people routinely tell me I have wonderful kids), and people at church have told me my mother makes disparaging comments about me 'with all those kids.'

I guess I'm curious if others have had similar experiences, of the criticisms coming from those they would have least expected to behave that way.

I'm interested in any explanation as to human nature, how people can be so critical of someone who lives exactly as those people profess to believe. (Some clarification, in addition to being professing Catholics attending mass weekly or even daily, my father is also a diagnosed alcoholic with a history of domestic abuse and even jail time for it. My mother is very much a co-dependent who has stayed in an abusive marriage for 50 years, which no doubt all has a profound impact on all of this.)

I'm curious how others handle criticisms of living their faith from those closest to them. I'd especially love to know if anyone else is in my position of being criticized for it by the very people who profess to believe and value it!

I think you may have your answer in what you wrote - look at what your mother has dealt with. Not to sound anti-Catholic, but if I had a husband who was an alcoholic (or drug use or whatever) -I'd want to have some major assurances for not bringing more kids into that situation - her assurance was birth control. That was probably a safety net for her but she unfortunately became co dependant as you've mentioned. Sometimes, even when what might be best is to leave,(which may have been the best thing in your mom's case we'll never know what might have happened had she left) then sometimes people cling to religion (whichever religion it may be) to justify their actions. You say she's very devout but pushes abc for you - perhaps she views it as keeping you safe in case something like she went through were ever to happen to you (not saying your husband isn't wonderful - so please don't take it that way)- but remember for her 'normal' marriage is to an alcoholic man for how many years? Your family size it your choice - not to be crude but your husband and kids are likely to be around much longer than your parents - and this is you and your husbands decision - I think you handled it well, but perhaps letting her know that you have a great husband and a good life, etc. might help her be a little more accepting - plus once that new grand child comes along, I seriously doubt there will be much complaining, but fully expect questions like ' so that's it for a while, right?' or 'you'll be more careful next time right, dear...' - try to take it with good grace -
Good luck and God Bless
Annie

[april32010]

Originally Posted by TBenedicta

"Mom, that's really not your concern. Your job is just to be HAPPY right now."

fantastic response,good bless you and yours.

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by ryecroft

I think you may have your answer in what you wrote - look at what your mother has dealt with. Not to sound anti-Catholic, but if I had a husband who was an alcoholic (or drug use or whatever) -I'd want to have some major assurances for not bringing more kids into that situation - her assurance was birth control. That was probably a safety net for her but she unfortunately became co dependant as you've mentioned. Sometimes, even when what might be best is to leave,(which may have been the best thing in your mom's case we'll never know what might have happened had she left) then sometimes people cling to religion (whichever religion it may be) to justify their actions.

In the later years, this would definitely be true. But I think she thought they were happy, I think she was happy, in those years, and they used abc from the start. I think it was a matter of, it was the mid-60s, society was changing fast, and she bought into it. Also, she came from a large family and seemed to see only the negatives in it.

but perhaps letting her know that you have a great husband and a good life, etc. might help her be a little more accepting -

Actually, my husband spent the marriage lying about other women until I divorced him last fall. My mother is now telling people I imagine things, presumably about what he was up to. She thinks he's wonderful.

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by TBenedicta

I guess I'd just say to handle it with prayer. It's really the only way.

This is what I do. There's no other way. My parents very much see things their way, they are right, and that's that.

If you have anything negative to say, please keep silent out of respect. I want to have the best relationship I can with you, but your criticisms make it very hard to do that."

Sadly, their criticisms and fault-finding have led to a break between us. My dad's last communication with me involved calling me, drunk, at 10:30 am, ordering me to get off the phone with my client and listen to him, and when I didn't, leaving a dozen voice mails telling me he's a better parent than me, accusing me of ruining my son's life (my son has Asperger's), telling me what I was going to do, threatening to show up at my work and cause trouble if I didn't comply, and calling me vulgar names. Just to really put this in perspective.

And this is exactly what baffles me--how a man can go to church every day and yet somehow not see the problem with treating his daughter this way. Which is possibly a sidetrack from my original questions, but fills in more of the details.

You don't want to be one of those weird families with a lot of kids, do you?"

Obviously, I was stunned by her negative reaction to such an innocent comment and told her that "those people" who have large families aren't "weird", that many of them are good and faithful people who simply love the Lord and trust in his blessings.

I had to laugh reading this! With 9 kids, I suppose I most definitely count as one of those weird families! And this is what amazes me, is how rarely anyone has said these things directly to me. I'm not sure if I've lucked out or if I look so happy when I say I have 9 children that they figure it's hopeless to try to correct me!

But I will say, you are so right about trusting God's blessings. It has been a remarkable journey in faith and witnessing miracles, making the choice to FOLLOW my faith rather than the way of the world. I feel blessed every day by my children and grateful to God for putting into my life the friend who challenged me to LIVE my faith.

"I'm too young to be a grandma!" (I'm 23. She's 42.) to "I hope you plan on spacing out your kids and not having too many." She asked what I plan on doing about birth control in the future and I politely said "Mom, that's really not your concern. Your job is just to be HAPPY right now."

I also laughed at this. My oldest is 23, and I'm 43. I do feel too young by far to be a grandmother. However, I would hardly tell my children what to do about their own families on the basis of my feelings. I know I'd be delighted. I think you handled it beautifully.

I've been praying for her heart to soften ever since. I believe God gives us the families he does for a reason- and that includes my dear mother and father. I know it's a trial to have difficult family members, especially ones that aren't supportive or can be downright cruel or hostile towards your very way of life. But again I say, the answer to this problem, as with most problems, is prayer and understanding. Peace to you!

You sound wise for your age. I continue to pray. To date, I see no change, but it's always good to remember that God has His reasons.

[thewanderer]

I'm not married yet, so you should probably take my advice with a grain of salt, but honestly, on top of praying for her I would say that if you ever talk to her about it again, make sure to talk about it from the point of view of what you personally want in life. I think part of the negative attitude comes from the idea that Catholics are brainwashed by the Church and so that the Catholic Church is forcing its members to have large families. In otherwords, they don't see this as something that the individuals in the family truly want for themselves, but as something that 'that Catholic Church' forces on them. Talk to her about how much you and your husband love you child and are excited about your pregnancy, that this is not something you are doing simply because your religion tells you to, but explain that this is something that you would want even if you were to leave the Church tomorrow, that you would feel incomplete if you didn't have kids, and that you really couldn't care less whether or not its 'normal' to have a bunch of kids, because this is what you and your husband want as a family, it is your personal decision based on how you want to live your lives and you don't appreciate the fact that she is unwilling to accept the way that you have decided to live your life, you can even throw out the 'intolerant' line if you think it would help, that you are very suprized at her intolerant attitude that she is unwilling to accept your personal choices for how you want to live your life. Its just a suggestion, but I think some people are more willing to sympathize with someones way of life if it is presented as the way that person wants to live, you know, society is always telling us we should accept other people for who they are and that we should accept their life decisions even if they aren't traditional, I really do think a lot of people fail to recognize this with respect to large families because that is seen as the decision of the Institution of the Catholic Religion, rather than the personal life decision of the couple involved. Maybe such an approach won't make a difference, but I think its worth a try.

[E_7]

Wah! I big families!!! I'll like to have, someday, a family of nine! 7 well raised kids, a devoted catholic hubby and daddy, and me! When I hear about someone having a really big family, I feel admiration, like wow how beautiful, and then my eyes get teary out of joy (just like now).

God bless your family!!! and don't let what others say or think about you get to you. What matters is what HE thinks, not people. And children are wonderful gifts. I'm not a mom, but someday soon, after I get married, hopefully.

[faithsmind]

Hello holyrood.
Many people have blamed our failed marriage on the stress of the large number of kids. Namely my mother-in-law. Talk about twisting a knife in an already opened wound.

But I know so many people who have thrived after becoming mothers and fathers to a large number of kids. My brothers, included. Who would've known these geeky meat heads (hey, I'm their sis) would've turned into confident, capable, responsible men?? I know moms tend to worry, especially co-dependant ones. You having all those littles to take care of... thats a lot that's out of her hands.

Bless you
I'm sorry her support is not their, that must be so hard.

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

I think part of the negative attitude comes from the idea that Catholics are brainwashed by the Church and so that the Catholic Church is forcing its members to have large families. In otherwords, they don't see this as something that the individuals in the family truly want for themselves, but as something that 'that Catholic Church' forces on them. Talk to her about how much you and your husband love you child and are excited about your pregnancy, that this is not something you are doing simply because your religion tells you to...

Just to be clear, I'm not currently married or pregnant.

The fact is, I did end up with a bunch of kids not because I decided I wanted a large family but because I decided I wanted to follow my faith...and pregnancy resulted. Yes, some would find this bad.

I don't. I feel very blessed. In this day and age, few people would set out to have a big family. We're brainwashed with the idea that it's too difficult, too expensive, too hard, takes away from 'me time' (a phrase I hate!) But there are rich rewards to be had, both in the kids and the journey of faith.

My real bafflement is that the very people who claim to value Catholicism now have an issue with me practicing it.

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by faithsmind

Hello holyrood.
Many people have blamed our failed marriage on the stress of the large number of kids. Namely my mother-in-law. Talk about twisting a knife in an already opened wound.

But I know so many people who have thrived after becoming mothers and fathers to a large number of kids. My brothers, included. Who would've known these geeky meat heads (hey, I'm their sis) would've turned into confident, capable, responsible men?? I know moms tend to worry, especially co-dependant ones. You having all those littles to take care of... thats a lot that's out of her hands.

I'm sorry. That just really hurts to have things like that said.

I do agree that many people grow up and change for the better when they have children.

Sorry to say, but as far as I can tell, my mother isn't really worried about me, as much as whether everything will stay absolutely spotless and in its place, not to mention calm, peaceful, organized, and quiet, at her home if we visit. Hence, we no longer visit.

She gets agitated by things that really are none of her business--such as how I fold and put away laundry in my own home (that I fold it isn't good enough, she wants it done her way), whether my home is also up to her standards, how my children get a cup out of the cupboard, etc.

These things don't all go exactly as she herself would do them, and it upsets her and she feels the need to tell me how I could do it better, although she herself has only ever raised girls or two children at a time. I have lots of boys, several children with ADHD, and twins. She's never dealt with any of this. But she still firmly believes she knows how to do it all better. Then if she finds out I continued running my own home as I see fit, she starts in with telling everyone I'm 'just stubborn.'

[thewanderer]

Originally Posted by holyrood

Just to be clear, I'm not currently married or pregnant.

The fact is, I did end up with a bunch of kids not because I decided I wanted a large family but because I decided I wanted to follow my faith...and pregnancy resulted. Yes, some would find this bad.

I don't. I feel very blessed. In this day and age, few people would set out to have a big family. We're brainwashed with the idea that it's too difficult, too expensive, too hard, takes away from 'me time' (a phrase I hate!) But there are rich rewards to be had, both in the kids and the journey of faith.

My real bafflement is that the very people who claim to value Catholicism now have an issue with me practicing it.

Sorry for missing that.

Even if you only had a large family because of Catholicism though, honestly, if you are glad you made that decision you can tell whoever tries to bring you down that you wouldn't change it for the world. Yes, it can be frustrating when the very people who should be supporting you most start trying to tear you down, but there really isn't all that much one can do, pray and try to learn to let it go. I know, easier said than done, but it is still true.

[holyrood]

Originally Posted by thewanderer

Sorry for missing that.

Even if you only had a large family because of Catholicism though, honestly, if you are glad you made that decision you can tell whoever tries to bring you down that you wouldn't change it for the world. Yes, it can be frustrating when the very people who should be supporting you most start trying to tear you down, but there really isn't all that much one can do, pray and try to learn to let it go. I know, easier said than done, but it is still true.

No problem, lol.

I agree. And it's made me realize that the Catholic Church has more wisdom than I, because when I stepped out in faith, I found so many blessings there.