Penn State: $60million fine; all victories erased. - Page 8

sedonaman · #**106** Jul 24, '12, 12:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fix

...We are no longer educated, but credentialed. That may help in getting a corporate job, but it has not helped our culture. ...

There will always be folks who paint paintings and critique them; there will always be folks who write novels and analyze them.

Quote:

That is off topic, but my point is football as it is today, really has nothing to do with a college education.

I feel the same way about an "education" that has no use. What a sinful waste of valuable resources and time.
_________________
"We waste our efforts on the inane. We are educated not for life but for the classroom." – Seneca (AD 5-65).

jimmy · #**107** Jul 24, '12, 1:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

Has a trial been held [other than in the press] and found them legally guilty? If so, I'm sure you can cite a reference. As I write this, the news is referring to the Aurora shooter as "alleged". Even the shooting itself is "alleged".

How would you like to be part of the "tough luck" crowd? Your position amounts to a bill of attainder: guilt by association, and that's what we have in this country, a bill of attainder against men. This is just the latest manifestation of it.

Do you take your kids to court before you punish them? Are they proven legally guilty by a jury of their peers before you punish them? As I said, it is nonsense what you are saying. If you don't have to wait for a trial to show your children are legally guilty, neither does anyone else. They are guilty; they knew what was going on and they covered it up. There is no possible excuse that changes that or decreases their culpability. So they should be punished.

You are a typical liberal who puts big organizations and businesses above everyone else. ''They can't be punished, they are too big to fail. If they are punished look at all the innocent people who will be hurt.'' Bla bla bla. You would probably let a rapist walk free because his parents might have hurt feelings if he were convicted of his crimes.

When guilty people are punished, innocent people often get caught in the cross fire. It happened with the Bernie Madoff case, and it happens with others as well. People were forced to give back money they had gained through Bernie Madoff, even though they were innocent of any crimes. It's called ill gotten gains.

wynnejj · #**108** Jul 24, '12, 1:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy

It's called ill gotten gains.

That's the crux of your argument? Players must return their wins because they are ill-gotten gains. Unlike returning money that one did not rightfully earn, Penn State players did rightfully earn their winning records. No cover-up scenario changes that fact.

jimmy · #**109** Jul 24, '12, 1:53 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wynnejj

That's the crux of your argument? Players must return their wins because they are ill-gotten gains. Unlike returning money that one did not rightfully earn, Penn State players did rightfully earn their winning records. No cover-up scenario changes that fact.

Read the post and follow the logic. Taking a sentence out of context is not a good way to have a conversation or a debate. If you don't get the logic, then read it again.

It doesn't matter whether their wins were earned, the program must be punished and if they are hurt by it then tough luck. That is how it happens. Innocent people get caught in the cross fire. If you are afraid to punish guilty people because innocent people might inadvertantly get hurt then no one will ever get punished. Should we avoid puting a drug dealer or murderer in jail because it will leave a child without a father? That is rediculous.

But to tell the truth, the former players won't be affected by vacating wins. They will still have the memories of making the plays and winning the games. Paterno's legacy is what is affected. He is removed from the record books.

sedonaman · #**110** Jul 24, '12, 2:01 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy

Do you take your kids to court before you punish them? Are they proven legally guilty by a jury of their peers before you punish them? As I said, it is nonsense what you are saying. If you don't have to wait for a trial to show your children are legally guilty, neither does anyone else. ...

This is crazy. Penn State is not a parent, and its employees are not children. Hence, this is a false analogy. The rest of your post is worse. The innocent are just so much collateral damage, and that's OK with you? Think if it happened to you, and have a nice life.

He Man · #**111** Jul 24, '12, 2:05 pm

If we follow the logic that punishment is not about revenge, it seems the people most responsible are not being punished, and those on the periphery are.

The problem is until there is at least a civil trial, all the NCAA can do is lash out with a broad brush and not attack individuals, specifically those responsible.

They can't fine Paterno or any other administrator millions of dollars, since they simply don't have that power legally. They could give them a lifetime ban from college athletics, but this doesn't have the "teeth" they were looking for in trying to appear to do the right thing. it wouldn't soothe anyone.

Any punishment they could dole out is going to hurt a 99% group who had literally nothing to do with the entire mess. The only way those responsible will actually face punishment is through the court system.

I still don't have a perfect solution myself, because there isn't one. We can't undo the past nor repair the lives of those who were hurt. This to me though seems a bit like carpet bombing a country whose government covered up for terrorists (Pakistan). You basically destroy the lives of the entire populace to make an example.

septimine · #**112** Jul 24, '12, 5:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromTheAshes777

I am in full support of criminal prosecution and punishment doled out by the criminal justice system for those at the University that helped to cover up these crimes. I think they deserve that and investigations should continue into anyone that may have been involved in the cover up. I think prison time along with severe fines and probation are all appropriate.

I don't think the destruction of the football program is the necessary step to take in this situation, and I think the NCAA is simply trying to make itself look good in light of the public outrage around this case.

For many young men from less fortunate backgrounds, football is the difference between a successful career and a minimum wage job in an impoverished area. I say if they can play football and get scholarship money, and maybe make it into the NFL or some other league, more power to them.

University leaders of all types absolutely should be criminally accountable if they have done something this terribly wrong.

However, don't punish the student athletes, the people who have lower level jobs associated with the program, or all of the local businesses that thrive off of football weekends. The NCAA has no authority to prosecute criminals, so they are doing what I just mentioned instead and I think that's inappropriate, and wrong.

The thing is that this was not just a failure of a coach and a program, it was a failure of the entire university that put the financial benefits of a winning football program ahead of doing the right thing. Those penalties were directed at the front office which directly profited over a period of 15+ years from not investigating the charges or rumors. The front office, including the leadership of the university itself must be hit in the pocketbook so as they aren't thinking about the gravy train when they hear about funny stuff going on in the showers. I think all told, they actually got off fairly light. For 4 years of not investigating, they still get to keep most of the profits for the next seasons ($60 Million is the profit for one year), still get to build a program that's ready to take the field in 4 years with a fair shot at winning, and so on. Vacating wins might make the football team look slightly worse than they would had the wins reamined, but still not aweful, considering how few people care about history. So they aren't getting punished very severely if you consider the money machine that college football actually is. If they were serious about sending the message of "never again" I think they'd have shut down the program for a year or two. A massive loss of funds like that would be remembered by all colleges for a long time. You let a kid get messed with, you will not profit from the football program for a few years.

jimmy · #**113** Jul 24, '12, 5:55 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

This is crazy. Penn State is not a parent, and its employees are not children. Hence, this is a false analogy. The rest of your post is worse. The innocent are just so much collateral damage, and that's OK with you? Think if it happened to you, and have a nice life.

No it isn't false. The fact is that it isn't legally required that an organization like the NCAA wait for legal proceedings in order to punish an offending university, and nor should it be. What the coaches did at Penn State is disgusting and whether they are legally prosecuted doesn't affect whether the NCAA should punish them.

If I was on the team in the past it wouldn't make a difference to me whether the wins were vacated. I would still have the same memories. I would still remember making the passes or catches or tackles. I would still remember my team winning. I would still remember winning any bowl games, and I would still have any rings or whatever obtained from winning them. What the record books say is meaningless.

Cider · #**114** Jul 24, '12, 6:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

This is crazy. Penn State is not a parent, and its employees are not children. Hence, this is a false analogy. The rest of your post is worse. The innocent are just so much collateral damage, and that's OK with you? Think if it happened to you, and have a nice life.

That is what happens. Dude murders someone, goes to prison, his wife and kids lose his income. It's a perfect example of why there is no such thing as a private sin, it always effects others one way or another.

cerad2 · #**115** Jul 24, '12, 6:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typist

To it's great credit, the NCAA is teaching young people there are some things far more important than football.

I played football throughout my youth, which began in that part of the country. I find the NCAA decision to be fully in the true spirit of what I learned about life from my football coaches.

If only all institutions could display such a decisive clarity of mind.

Such as the Catholic Church?

Pork Roll · #**116** Jul 24, '12, 11:24 pm

I always thought the fanatical devotion to JoePa and Penn state football was a little weird. They almost treated him like a religious figure or something. Who cares.

sedonaman · #**117** Jul 25, '12, 7:14 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by septimine

The thing is that this was not just a failure of a coach and a program, it was a failure of the entire university that put the financial benefits of a winning football program ahead of doing the right thing. ...

Baloney. The school didn't molest those kids; the coach is alleged to. If "it was a failure of the entire university," then the problem would be in every school with a football program dedicated to winning.

eightandsand · #**118** Jul 25, '12, 8:12 am

Excellent article by Barry Bozeman on this issue: "PSU and Paterno Not Guilty - McQueary Testimony Proves It."

http://www.opednews.com/articles/PSU...20707-503.html

**fix** · #**119** Jul 25, '12, 9:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by eightandsand

Excellent article by Barry Bozeman on this issue: "PSU and Paterno Not Guilty - McQueary Testimony Proves It."

http://www.opednews.com/articles/PSU...20707-503.html

From the author:

Quote:

When you can show me how a 6'4 225lb 55 year old man standing upright behind a 10 year old 70lb boy also standing upright not bent over who's head comes to the Man's pectoral muscles with his feet on the floor can do sodomy. *all of this documented under oath from Mike McQueary in his perjury hearing testimony

When you can tell me how that boy would show no pain, distress or fear and did not cry out or utter a sound.

When you can tell me how a 27 year old football player and coach can run away without helping a child who was being raped.

When you can tell me why that child never came forward 12 years later?

When you can tell me why or how 4 good men would allow that to continue if that is what they believed?

When you can answer the questions raised in my article

and when you can tell me how a 2 second glance would reveal that.
That's when I might realize a rape was occuring.

This is why there is a problem with the worship of sports. It is beyond absurd.

JMJSHJ · #**120** Jul 25, '12, 9:30 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by sedonaman

This is crazy. Penn State is not a parent, and its employees are not children. Hence, this is a false analogy. The rest of your post is worse. The innocent are just so much collateral damage, and that's OK with you? Think if it happened to you, and have a nice life.

If you think that having wins removed from football games constitutes collateral damage then perhaps its you need to reread what real collateral damage is. Perhaps its attitudes that winning football games is vitally important is part of the culture that prevented these horrific crimes from being reported sooner.

Boo hoo the losses got set aside. Do you think NFL scouts care about that when making recruitment selections? Does setting aside wins affect their University degree?