To be called Muslim

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by robwar

Respect shown to people is different than promoting Islam.

To me IbnFiktur didn't seem to be promoting Islam--considering his Arabic username, this new member of CAF may be of Egyptian, Levantine, or Iraqi descent and therefore not well disposed to Islam. IbnFiktur was pointing out that one must understand and respect an opponent in order to achieve success against it.

St. Francis was disappointed that there were not more conversions

In what context?

and they didn't go to the East to shake hands.

Didn't St. Francis meet with the `Abbasid caliph reigning at the time and pave the way for the latter's conversion(!) and baptism?

John Paul II actually met more with the Dalai Lama than any particular Muslim.

Given that Islam numerically exceeds Buddhism in terms of worldwide adherents, and Christians suffer far more oppression in Muslim countries than Buddhist ones, this seems odd.

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by IbnFiktur

There you go again, putting words in my mouth. I am not promoting Islam. Read my posts in this thread, and you will rather learn something about Islam. I am not saying anything that is not entirely true.

As I have said in countless other threads, pulling one-liners from the Qur'an in order to prove how terrible Islam is as a religion is no more productive than pulling one-liners from the Bible to (as many anti-Christians do) to prove how terrible Christianity is. Talking about instances of persecution is equally useless, as the Muslim world has historically been more tolerant to other religions than Western Christendom. I'm not saying we should get into a competition to say who persecuted who more. I'm saying that it's not a fair way to judge a religion or its people, and if you want fair treatment for Christianity I suggest you treat others as you wish your own faith to be treated. To that end I am trying to help posters in this thread understand Islamic theology and how it differs from ours. This will help foster understanding and communication between our two faiths. And yes, this will also help in evangelizing the Muslim world. Good luck trying to talk to people whose faith you don't understand and try to convince them that yours is better.

I'd also encourage you to meet some Muslims.

[jpaul1953]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

Originally Posted by IbnFiktur

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. Are you asking if I find the claims of Christianity to be more credible than the claims of Islam? Well, I'm a Christian. The teachings of Christianity give my heart peace, and that gives me faith. So yes, of course I do.

My intention here isn't to defend Islam (though it is sometimes subject to ridiculous polemical attacks), but rather to try to put Islamic teachings in perspective so that we can more effectively communicate and dialogue with our Muslim brothers and sisters. So the general point I was trying to make in the text you quoted isn't that Islam is somehow more "correct" that Christianity. Rather, I'm trying to expound on what the Islamic concept of revelation is and how it differs from our own.

As far as "an archangel speaking to Muhammad in a cave..." I am not a Muslim, and I do not believe an archangel ever came to him, but I would avoid taking such a condescending tone about Muhammad. It is rather incredible that he was able to compose one of the most beautiful pieces of poetry I've ever read, mobilize support in the majority-pagan Arabian peninsula, and found a religion which mere years after his death toppled an ancient empire and cut another in half. My point here is that it would be harmful to our understanding and perspective to somehow downplay Muhammad's accomplishments. Regardless of the truth or lack thereof of his prophethood (and of course as Christians we deny that truth), we cannot deny that he did some things that were truly unbelievable. That is why, without acknowledging the truth of Islam, you can certainly respect it and its adherents.

So if I had to sum up my response to your question: I am Christian and I deny the truth in most of the claims of Islam; however, I believe it is vitally important to understand Islamic thought and theology so that we of different faiths can better communicate. That is my purpose in comparing Christian and Muslim concepts of revelation.

Dear Ibn Fiktur ,

I was not being condescending. I was more so comparing your comment that Muslim scholars might find our Gospels laughable to the issue of Muhammed being in a cave with an Archangel.

I know there are many holy Muslims. I would be a fool to doubt that. What I do not agree with is your apparent belief that Mohammed is in someway responsible for the incredible growth of Islam. This religion has grown for many reasons, some proper and some not proper. Mohammed was but a mere mortal. He may have only helped fill a void in lives that gave order to one's life, but as many historians have stated, millions of Muslims were force fed the faith. And, yes I know Christianity had some similar periods, but nowhere near the degree.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

[IbnFiktur]

Originally Posted by jpaul1953

Dear Ibn Fiktur ,

I was not being condescending. I was more so comparing your comment that Muslim scholars might find our Gospels laughable to the issue of Muhammed being in a cave with an Archangel.

I know there are many holy Muslims. I would be a fool to doubt that. What I do not agree with is your apparent belief that Mohammed is in someway responsible for the incredible growth of Islam. This religion has grown for many reasons, some proper and some not proper. Mohammed was but a mere mortal. He may have only helped fill a void in lives that gave order to one's life, but as many historians have stated, millions of Muslims were force fed the faith. And, yes I know Christianity had some similar periods, but nowhere near the degree.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

Thank you for the clarification friend, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The idea of whether Muhammad was responsible for the incredible growth of Islam is, as I'm sure you know, a matter of historical rather than religious debate. Historians of a variety of different faiths disagree on the topic, so I would say that as of today there is no clear answer.

I'd humbly offer my own perspective though. The Qur'an, though not authentic scripture, is a beautiful work of literature for a man who lived in a pre-literate society. And though he did not see the expansion of Islam beyond the Arabian peninsula in his own lifetime, he did spread monotheism throughout that peninsula, which was almost exclusively pagan. This is something that Christian and Jewish merchants and residents of the Arabian peninsula were never able to do... or perhaps simply didn't think enough of the nomadic bedouins to bother trying. He was also an effective governor, administrator, and general during his lifetime. All this makes him a historically remarkable man.

That's my two cents on the matter, thank you for clarifying your earlier point

[Trebor135]

Originally Posted by jpaul1953

...

My username appeared in the quote tags in this post--were you intending to comment on something I had written but your response got lost in transmission?

[jpaul1953]

Originally Posted by IbnFiktur

Thank you for the clarification friend, I apologize for misunderstanding you.

The idea of whether Muhammad was responsible for the incredible growth of Islam is, as I'm sure you know, a matter of historical rather than religious debate. Historians of a variety of different faiths disagree on the topic, so I would say that as of today there is no clear answer.

I'd humbly offer my own perspective though. The Qur'an, though not authentic scripture, is a beautiful work of literature for a man who lived in a pre-literate society. And though he did not see the expansion of Islam beyond the Arabian peninsula in his own lifetime, he did spread monotheism throughout that peninsula, which was almost exclusively pagan. This is something that Christian and Jewish merchants and residents of the Arabian peninsula were never able to do... or perhaps simply didn't think enough of the nomadic bedouins to bother trying. He was also an effective governor, administrator, and general during his lifetime. All this makes him a historically remarkable man.

That's my two cents on the matter, thank you for clarifying your earlier point

Dear Ibn Fiktur,

I greatly appreciate your Knowledge on this matter. You have widened my perspective. Your point about Mohammed successfully bringing a vast area to leave paganism for the belief in one God. That is massive accomplishment . It alone would have been massive if 2-million people were able to convince another 2-million that there is but one God.

I knew about his well-known arbitering ability unmatched in his lifetime along with instinctual ability to govern.

I know several Arab Muslims in Brooklyn, NY. I have not met one that I dislike . They know I am Catholic and we speak about all sides of our faiths with mutual respect.

I believe one must live their faith as true as one can. I believe that is what God wants from each of us . When I was a child I believed immaturely that only Catholics will go to Heaven and not many at that. Now I believe as it is spoken in Romans 2 about those without the law being granted eternity if they live it by their conscience as best they can.

May God bless you and your family. You sure sound like a good man. Thank you for your imput. It helped open my eyes a bit more.

Respectfully,

Jpaul1953

[jpaul1953]

Originally Posted by Trebor135

My username appeared in the quote tags in this post--were you intending to comment on something I had written but your response got lost in transmission?

Hi Trebor

I don't believe I sent it mistakenly. Sorry for the confusion


Take care,

Jpaul1953