Evidence against Design?

[inocente]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

It is begging the question - and incompatible with Christian belief that God created everything - to assert that the trillions of stars are the product of blind forces and nothing but blind forces.

Irrelevant, since you yourself ruled the putative designer off-topic - "I think we have enough information to reach some conclusions about the source of Design - but that takes us away from the topic" (post #27).

Everything about the positions and shapes of stars is known beyond any reasonable doubt to be the product of blind forces, so already more than 99.99% of nature is evidence against design. But that's not my point, what I'm saying is that stars were once thought to be perfectly designed with the Earth at their center, now we know that's false. So if we made a mistake on that scale, it's probable that whatever else looks as though it's designed won't turn out to be on closer inspection.

[da_nolo]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

1. Evidence against Design consists of the negative aspects of reality.
2. The most significant negative aspect of reality is evil.
3. Physical evil is negative because it harms or destroys living beings and their habitat.
4. Physical evil has physical causes which are essential for life.
5. Physical evil is inevitable in a physical universe.
6. Moral evil is negative because it interferes with personal development and fulfilment.
7. Moral evil also harms or destroys living beings and their habitat.
8. Moral evil presupposes free will. (Kant: "Ought implies can".)
9. Free will presupposes the power of reason.
10. Free will also presupposes the power to be unreasonable.

A. I don't know what the heck you are getting at.
is this one of those things where you try to set up an argument against, but becomes an argument for???

B. below is not numbered according to number system provided.

1.evidence against Design (God) consists of the negative aspects of reality. in actuality - the 'negative' is considered towards things that are of personal opinion (as you put "evil"). In some manner this seems to oppose Design, however design may not be dependent on the such. how could anyone define design - for that matter - when our own conception of design is limited and that design is in fact of its own (or in other words - it exists beyond our knowledge)?

2. the word negative in itself refers to what there is without. as does "evil" however, these things could not be of opinion. so a perspective w/o may exist. still what is with out may not tarnish the possibility with. furthermore there still exists the possibility of being of with AND without or uninfluenced by matters of morals or design though a indirect result of it (i.e. chaos). these things are of 'neutral' behavior at best.

3. evil in itself is not physical, but may produce a physical outcome. such is true w/ many aspects through out the universe. (i.e. gravity). in other words an act may not be evil w/o intent or purpose or some other factor which may 'rule' as evil. so there is no separate 'kinds' of evil.

4. once more must dive into what is neutral. destruction is a neutral (sometimes result from evil). if there is a separation of the two then the manner in which we react would may be independent to evil. therefore it may not essential. however, w/o sadness we may not understand happiness. w/o evil could we understand good/God?

5.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by inocente

Irrelevant, since you yourself ruled the putative designer off-topic - "I think we have enough information to reach some conclusions about the source of Design - but that takes us away from the topic" (post #27).

It is certainly relevant from a Christian point of view - even without considering the source of Design - which rejects the theory that everything is the product of blind forces.

Everything about the positions and shapes of stars is known beyond any reasonable doubt to be the product of blind forces, so already more than 99.99% of nature is evidence against design.

An invalid conclusion based on the assumption that blind forces are sufficient to account for every event in the universe - including the existence of persons.

But that's not my point, what I'm saying is that stars were once thought to be perfectly designed with the Earth at their center, now we know that's false. So if we made a mistake on that scale, it's probable that whatever else looks as though it's designed won't turn out to be on closer inspection.

A scientific error is irrelevant with respect to the fundamental nature of reality - which is a metaphysical issue.

[da_nolo]

Originally Posted by inocente

Irrelevant, since you yourself ruled the putative designer off-topic - "I think we have enough information to reach some conclusions about the source of Design - but that takes us away from the topic" (post #27).

Everything about the positions and shapes of stars is known beyond any reasonable doubt to be the product of blind forces, so already more than 99.99% of nature is evidence against design. But that's not my point, what I'm saying is that stars were once thought to be perfectly designed with the Earth at their center, now we know that's false. So if we made a mistake on that scale, it's probable that whatever else looks as though it's designed won't turn out to be on closer inspection.

everything in the universe (including chaos) has some sort of 'law' to it. law is design.

[da_nolo]

Originally Posted by buffalo

the Trinity?

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

An invalid conclusion based on the assumption that blind forces are sufficient to account for every event in the universe - including the existence of persons.

This is an invalid assumption because of the lack of evidence leading to the universal ''every event".

Wind can be considered a blind force since in itself, it is not rational. Last night, the wind or some natural force formed an amazing design of clouds semi-covering the bright moon. Design existed in the sky last night.

Design is a many splendored thing. The human person, called by God to share in happiness eternal, is designed in such a way that sharing in the spiritual life of God, with one foot on a banana peel, is possible.

[inocente]

Originally Posted by tonyrey

It is certainly relevant from a Christian point of view - even without considering the source of Design - which rejects the theory that everything is the product of blind forces.

Christians follow Christ, not Design, scripture says nothing about an entity named Design.

That’s also excellent evidence against Design, thanks for pointing it out.

Originally Posted by inocente

Everything about the positions and shapes of stars is known beyond any reasonable doubt to be the product of blind forces, so already more than 99.99% of nature is evidence against design.

I said nothing about any of that, could we stick to the subject? Your OP is about evidence. If you think the positions and shapes of stars are evidence for Design then please present it, otherwise it remains true that the position and shape of stars is evidence against Design.

Originally Posted by inocente

But that's not my point, what I'm saying is that stars were once thought to be perfectly designed with the Earth at their center, now we know that's false. So if we made a mistake on that scale, it's probable that whatever else looks as though it's designed won't turn out to be on closer inspection.

I wasn't referring to a scientific error, but to the Galileo affair, where centuries ago the Church accepted that any religious belief that the stars and planets are perfect and that the universe was designed with the Earth at is center is wrong.

Are you now saying the thread was mistitled, and is actually about metaphysical speculations rather than evidence?

[inocente]

Originally Posted by da_nolo

everything in the universe (including chaos) has some sort of 'law' to it. law is design.

Yes, the laws of nature are designed by humans to describe part of nature. Your opinion may be that those laws reflect an underlying design, fine, but your opinion isn't evidence.

[buffalo]

A plan born in the Father's heart
759 "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This "family of God" is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Alliance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."152

[inocente]

Originally Posted by grannymh

Wind can be considered a blind force since in itself, it is not rational. Last night, the wind or some natural force formed an amazing design of clouds semi-covering the bright moon. Design existed in the sky last night.

And no doubt we've all seen faces in clouds. There's a mountain in front of our house where, as the Sun goes down, a face appears (and it looks roughly like a traditional portrait of Jesus, beard and all).

We tend to see patterns all over the place, but they are not evidence for design, they are evidence that we mistakenly perceive design where it doesn't exist, and the more we learn about nature and ourselves, the more we realize that.

Although we had the same kind of clouds last night and agreed, it was pretty cool.

[buffalo]

Originally Posted by inocente

And no doubt we've all seen faces in clouds. There's a mountain in front of our house where, as the Sun goes down, a face appears (and it looks roughly like a traditional portrait of Jesus, beard and all).

We tend to see patterns all over the place, but they are not evidence for design, they are evidence that we mistakenly perceive design where it doesn't exist, and the more we learn about nature and ourselves, the more we realize that.

Although we had the same kind of clouds last night and agreed, it was pretty cool.

Designs always contain patterns. Natural patterns do not contain languages, symbols, maps or codes.

Designs always come from a mind.

[grannymh]

Originally Posted by inocente

And no doubt we've all seen faces in clouds. There's a mountain in front of our house where, as the Sun goes down, a face appears (and it looks roughly like a traditional portrait of Jesus, beard and all).

We tend to see patterns all over the place, but they are not evidence for design, they are evidence that we mistakenly perceive design where it doesn't exist, and the more we learn about nature and ourselves, the more we realize that.

Although we had the same kind of clouds last night and agreed, it was pretty cool.

I simply said, somewhat poetically, that design exists because patterns exist. Clouds that form faces are forming patterns or designs. I don't recall implying evidence of a designer or evidence for design the theory.

Glad we can enjoy the same, pretty cool clouds, without getting entangled with some kind of philosophy.

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by buffalo

A plan born in the Father's heart
759 "The eternal Father, in accordance with the utterly gratuitous and mysterious design of his wisdom and goodness, created the whole universe and chose to raise up men to share in his own divine life,"150 to which he calls all men in his Son. "The Father . . . determined to call together in a holy Church those who should believe in Christ."151 This "family of God" is gradually formed and takes shape during the stages of human history, in keeping with the Father's plan. In fact, "already present in figure at the beginning of the world, this Church was prepared in marvelous fashion in the history of the people of Israel and the old Alliance. Established in this last age of the world and made manifest in the outpouring of the Spirit, it will be brought to glorious completion at the end of time."152

God is supposed to have no plan or purpose!

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by buffalo

Designs always contain patterns. Natural patterns do not contain languages, symbols, maps or codes.

Designs always come from a mind.

God is supposed not to play any part in what occurs in the universe!

[tonyrey]

Originally Posted by da_nolo

everything in the universe (including chaos) has some sort of 'law' to it. law is design.

Otherwise the laws of nature just happen to exist for no reason or purpose!