Catechism paragraph 841 Muslims

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

Thanks for the replies. Mickey, I totally agree with you. If Muslims (or anyone else for that matter), don't believe that Jesus is the Son of God, they are not saved. Period! You can have different beliefs about Jesus & still be saved, of course. But, if you don't believe that Jesus is the Savior & the Son of God then you are not saved.

Then you're REALLY going to have a problem as you keep reading the Catechism:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

Catechism ¶¶ 846-48.

The Catholic Church teaches that there are those who have never heard of Jesus who nevertheless can be granted salvation.

But, as far as ¶ 841 is concerned, the Catechism is not saying that all Muslims will achieve salvation. It merely acknowledges that they adore the one, true God.

And, by the way, the Catholic Church doesn't teach the concept of "being saved" as some Protestant churches teach. For one thing, St. Paul made it clear that salvation is an ongoing process; for another, St. Peter made it clear that you can lose your salvation even after finding Jesus. Leaving that aside, however, the Church does not teach that "All Muslims are saved" or anything similar.

[1ke]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Then you're REALLY going to have a problem as you keep reading the Catechism

Not a problem, an opportunity. An opportunity to reclaim an authentic understanding of redemption, salvation, and sanctification.

[crimtidegirl]

Originally Posted by 1ke

I think you need to learn more about the Church's teaching regarding salvation. The idea of "being saved" as a one time event is contrary to Catholic teaching. It is a wholesale mental shift you will need to make here.

I do not believe that being saved is a one time event. I believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away from Christ. I just don't see why you are having such a problem with my question. Of course God loves Muslims & wants them to be saved. He loves everyone. I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.

[LB_in_TX]

"I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD"

200 These are the words with which the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed begins. The confession of God's oneness, which has its roots in the divine revelation of the Old Covenant, is inseparable from the profession of God's existence and is equally fundamental. God is unique; there is only one God: "The Christian faith confesses that God is one in nature, substance and essence."3

201 To Israel, his chosen, God revealed himself as the only One: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."4 Through the prophets, God calls Israel and all nations to turn to him, the one and only God: "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.. . To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 'Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength.'"5

202 Jesus himself affirms that God is "the one Lord" whom you must love "with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength".6 At the same time Jesus gives us to understand that he himself is "the Lord".7 To confess that Jesus is Lord is distinctive of Christian faith. This is not contrary to belief in the One God. Nor does believing in the Holy Spirit as "Lord and giver of life" introduce any division into the One God:


We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.8

[crimtidegirl]

And yes, I know that Muslims claim that they follow the God of Abraham. I know they are descended from Ishmael (sp?) & they profess the God of Abraham. But they don't believe that God has a Son.

[findingmyself08]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I do not believe that being saved is a one time event. I believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away from Christ. I just don't see why you are having such a problem with my question. Of course God loves Muslims & wants them to be saved. He loves everyone. I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.

The Church is not saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity. I would say you should re-read what was posted above.

[jam070406]

Originally Posted by Mickey

I also have a big problem with it. I understand the apologetic from the Catholic perspective....and I have debated it many times. However, I do not agree with this teaching about Muslims worshipping the same God as the Christians....and I suppose I never will agree with it.



Sura 4:171 (Koran)– Allah forbid that he should have a son!

1 John 2:23 (Douay-Rheims)–Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father.

I agree with you.

[Vouthon]

I think that Pope St Gregory VII explained it best:


"...He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.' This good action was inspired in your heart by God....This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities [. . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth..."

- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I do not believe that being saved is a one time event. I believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away from Christ. I just don't see why you are having such a problem with my question. Of course God loves Muslims & wants them to be saved. He loves everyone. I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.

Not to worry: it doesn't. Islam is not equal to Christianity. Let's examine the paragraph that's bothering you, point by point:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims

A true statement, yes? The plan of salvation includes everyone ("For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him"). That doesn't mean that everyone actually is going to be saved, because we are free to reject His grace; but the plan of salvation does include everyone.

these profess to hold the faith of Abraham,

Yes, they claim to follow Abraham through Ishmael. No big deal here, right?

and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.

They adore God. Is that not true? We also adore God. Which God? The only one there is, and He will be mankind's judge on the last day.

But the Catechism does not teach that following Islam will lead you to salvation. It is possible for a Muslim to receive salvation, of course, but that's not the same thing. Islam is insufficient to receive salvation, and the Church has never taught otherwise. We are, however, willing to acknowledge that they are adoring the one, true God despite the fact that they woefully misunderstand Him.

[jam070406]

Originally Posted by Vouthon

I think that Pope St Gregory VII explained it best:


"...He who enlightens all men coming into this world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore Him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, 'He is our peace who hath made both one.' This good action was inspired in your heart by God....This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities [. . .] For God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in this life and in the life to come. And we pray in our hearts and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth..."

- Pope St. Gregory VII, Letter XXI to Al-Nasir the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya (Algeria), 1076

Uh huh... and 20 years later the first Crusade is called.

[john81]

Originally Posted by 1ke

The Church does not believe in "political correctness" either, but she does believe in the virtue of charity.

Speaking the truth is charity!! For goodness sakes people!! All who are trying to rationalize the Muslims beliefs are just not correct in their thinking! The Jews and the Muslims deny the Son of God made Man!! You cannot believe in an "altered God". All the comparisons of different political beliefs, or race, is not logical. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To deny one of the persons is to deny the Trinity. And what is God?? The Trinity people!!

I am sorry for being a little over the top, but come on!! We are Catholics and the initial thread poster (I am not sure of his/her domain name) has it correct. As our Lord said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life".

Think of it this way; A Jew/Muslim true to their "own" faith (not the true faith) dies and is on the judgement seat. Jesus himself is the judge in front of this person. Above his head reads "All who believe in me will be saved". What will Christ say to this person? Is it not Church teaching (along with common sense) that the first question Jesus will ask is "Did you believe in Me?".

Let us all remember that these two faiths (Judaism, Islam) deny Christ our King, Our Savior, and Our Lord. AMEN!

God bless

[robwar]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

Hi. I was raised in a strong Protestant family but have been considering converting to Catholicism. I have been praying the Rosary & the Divine Office daily. While reading the Catechism I came across paragraph 841 which states that Muslims worship the same god as Christians. I have a BIG problem with that. Hopefully, someone can tell me I am misunderstanding what the Catechism is saying? Thanks and God Bless!

as one of the other poster said, if you read beyond that, it does say that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. It might be easy to misinterpret 841. I Think what it is saying that as a monotheist religion, they are worshiping one God as Jews do. There understanding is corrupt obviously. Remember, the first gentile followers were the magi, they were astrologers. That is a false religion or belief system. But even in that there were threads of truth that they followed and it lead them to Christ. Does that mean we should follow astrology? no but the Catholic Church recognizes more so than Protestantism that other faiths have truths in them. That does not equalize other beliefs or faiths but hopefully someone in that belief system will start to follow what truth they have and have it lead to Christ. Coming from a strong Protestant background like you currently are, it takes time to understand this about other faiths. Islam is a false religion but they do believe in one God.
You can hope and pray that they would learn to follow this as well as what they believe about the Virgin Birth and that at least Jesus is a prophet to complete truth and freedom.

[john81]

Originally Posted by crimtidegirl

I do not believe that being saved is a one time event. I believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away from Christ. I just don't see why you are having such a problem with my question. Of course God loves Muslims & wants them to be saved. He loves everyone. I do have a huge problem in the Church saying that Islam is the same or equal to Christianity.

Please keep these strong beliefs concerning OLJC, because you are on the right path. Post Vatican II teaching is that the Muslims believe in the same God, and that is a whole other discussion.

Of course speaking to a priest is best, but if I could one piece of advice on the salvation part. Think of your soul as having sactifying grace (which means if you died, you would go to purgatory and/or Heaven) or not having sactifying grace (which, if you died you would go to Hell). It's no more difficult than that.

God bless

[jam070406]

Originally Posted by Godfollower

Not to worry: it doesn't. Islam is not equal to Christianity. Let's examine the paragraph that's bothering you, point by point:


A true statement, yes? The plan of salvation includes everyone ("For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him"). That doesn't mean that everyone actually is going to be saved, because we are free to reject His grace; but the plan of salvation does include everyone.

Yes, they claim to follow Abraham through Ishmael. No big deal here, right?

They adore God. Is that not true? We also adore God. Which God? The only one there is, and He will be mankind's judge on the last day.

But the Catechism does not teach that following Islam will lead you to salvation. It is possible for a Muslim to receive salvation, of course, but that's not the same thing. Islam is insufficient to receive salvation, and the Church has never taught otherwise. We are, however, willing to acknowledge that they are adoring the one, true God despite the fact that they woefully misunderstand Him.

Misunderstand? Uh no. They REJECT the Trinity. Therefore they reject the gift of Faith and the plan of salvation.

[Godfollower]

Originally Posted by john81

Speaking the truth is charity!! For goodness sakes people!! All who are trying to rationalize the Muslims beliefs are just not correct in their thinking! The Jews and the Muslims deny the Son of God made Man!! You cannot believe in an "altered God". All the comparisons of different political beliefs, or race, is not logical. God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To deny one of the persons is to deny the Trinity. And what is God?? The Trinity people!!

I am sorry for being a little over the top, but come on!! We are Catholics and the initial thread poster (I am not sure of his/her domain name) has it correct. As our Lord said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life".

Think of it this way; A Jew/Muslim true to their "own" faith (not the true faith) dies and is on the judgement seat. Jesus himself is the judge in front of this person. Above his head reads "All who believe in me will be saved". What will Christ say to this person? Is it not Church teaching (along with common sense) that the first question Jesus will ask is "Did you believe in Me?".

Let us all remember that these two faiths (Judaism, Islam) deny Christ our King, Our Savior, and Our Lord. AMEN!

God bless

That's right: they deny something of our faith. That's why they're different.

But the God they worship is the only God there is. Any they worship Him, and so do we.

No one here is trying to "rationalize Muslim beliefs." All we're saying is that the Church -- the Pillar of Truth according to Scripture -- has said that Muslims adore the one, true God. Not that they're all saved. Not that their worship is best (or even proper). Not that the Koran is true. Not that their description of God is correct. Not anything else.

Jews and Muslims alike deny the Trinity, and they deny Jesus' divinity. If that means that Muslims are worshipping a different God, then so are the Jews -- and that's pure nonsense.

Not to mention the heretical implications of claiming that there even is a different god out there that they're worshipping. We're a monotheistic religion because there isn't such a thing.