Baltimore Archbishop: Catholic Voters Can’t Vote for a Candidate Who Stands for an Intrinsic Evil

[Brendan]

Originally Posted by Hokomai

I think the Church proscribes the use of strategic nuclear weapons,

But there are tatctical nukes as well.

For example, the CCC does not proscribe the use of a nuclear tipped torpedo to attack a warship at sea.

Ergo, the use of nuclear weapons cannot be considered to be intrinsically evil

[DaveBj]

Originally Posted by just came back

In 2012, I will be holding my nose while voting for Mitt Romney only because Obama is such the abortion lover, not to mention a bigger warmongering president than Bush. Gitmo? Nope, still open. Afghanistan? We're still there. Libya? Do I even need to bring this up?

*snip*

My first election was in 1968. Since then there have been many elections in which I was holding my nose as a voted, and in retrospect I can see that I should have been holding my nose in the rest of them. However, it's pretty obvious that this year, holding my nose won't be enough; I'll need a gas mask.

Side note on the nukes -- that issue is not high on my radar screen. Granted, they exist in large numbers, but the chances that they will be used in any kind of dooms-day exchange scenario are incredibly small. I have a better chance of being hit on the head by a meteorite hurled by an eight-legged Martian monkey than seeing a nuclear war. This is not the thread to get into the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but the annual death toll in America's abortion clinics is greater than the combined numbers there.

[Tietrack]

Originally Posted by followyourbliss

Tampa Dave, I think you find yourself in a moral dilemma:

Last April, the US Catholic Bishops sent a blistering message to the House Ways and Means Committee saying that any federal budget must be judged by the way it protects the 'least of these.' In Bishop Blaire's words: "The House-passed budget resolution fails to meet these moral criteria."

The architect of the budget the Bishops deemed immoral was Rep. Paul Ryan, a Catholic, who has now joined Mitt Romney as his running mate on the GOP ticket.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1434919.html

Should we go bankrupt to help everyone who makes the poverty level plus 30 %? Helping with borrowed money from China is not helping the next generation. I'll vote for Romney/Ryan and fiscal responsibility over the most pro-abortion tax and spend leftist president in US history.

[He Man]

Originally Posted by followyourbliss

Tampa Dave, I think you find yourself in a moral dilemma:

Last April, the US Catholic Bishops sent a blistering message to the House Ways and Means Committee saying that any federal budget must be judged by the way it protects the 'least of these.' In Bishop Blaire's words: "The House-passed budget resolution fails to meet these moral criteria."

The architect of the budget the Bishops deemed immoral was Rep. Paul Ryan, a Catholic, who has now joined Mitt Romney as his running mate on the GOP ticket.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1434919.html

Why does this persist on here? Two Bishops had issues with the Budget, while others, including Cardinal Dolan, gave support to Ryan's budget budget as being in line with Catholic teaching.

The fact is the Church is being more and more clear about how we need to form our consciences to vote in every election. They are stopping just short naming the candidates you can't vote for, but if you cannot read between the lines, you simply do not want to.

Abortion is the greatest evil of our time. It is on par with the evils of the Holocaust. I somehow find it hard to believe that if we replaced the term abortion with "putting Jews in gas chambers" we'd have as many people trying to find ways to justify not voting for any party other than the Democrats.

"Yes, I realize that Obama supports funding for unrestricted gassing of the Jews, both at home and abroad, but how does this square with the Ryan budget and the effect it may have on the poor?"

The Church does not say who to vote for, but it gives pretty clear guidance on which platform must be avoided. You may disagree, but it is still pretty clear what good Bishop's like Bishop Lori are saying.

Put simply, there are no proportional reasons for a Catholic to vote for President Obama.

[Swiss Guy]

Originally Posted by zenith15

I was browsing in a Catholic bookstore the other day and ran across a pamphlet (NOT the Faithful Citizenship one by the USCCB) that stated in no uncertain terms that NO catholic may EVER vote for a candidate who is pro choice, no matter if they feel the other candidate is wrong in every regard but that one. There was another item I saw while there--a book--that stated you CANNOT be a Catholic and a democrat at the same time. Neither the pamphlet nor the book had an Imprimateur or a Nihil Obstat.

Without starting an argument over morality, intrinsic evil, etc I just want to know if the Church itself teaches this specifically, and if it teaches literally that one may NEVER vote for a pro choice candidate regardless of the flaws they may see, however serious, in the pro life candidate.

Just a plain answer with a citation on where the information came from is all I am looking for.

Thanks in advance.

It was probably "Can a Catholic be a Democrat?" If you looked at that keep in mind that the author is a Democrat.

[Swiss Guy]

Originally Posted by He Man

Why does this persist on here? Two Bishops had issues with the Budget, while others, including Cardinal Dolan, gave support to Ryan's budget budget as being in line with Catholic teaching.

The fact is the Church is being more and more clear about how we need to form our consciences to vote in every election. They are stopping just short naming the candidates you can't vote for, but if you cannot read between the lines, you simply do not want to.

Abortion is the greatest evil of our time. It is on par with the evils of the Holocaust. I somehow find it hard to believe that if we replaced the term abortion with "putting Jews in gas chambers" we'd have as many people trying to find ways to justify not voting for any party other than the Democrats.

"Yes, I realize that Obama supports funding for unrestricted gassing of the Jews, both at home and abroad, but how does this square with the Ryan budget and the effect it may have on the poor?"

The Church does not say who to vote for, but it gives pretty clear guidance on which platform must be avoided. You may disagree, but it is still pretty clear what good Bishop's like Bishop Lori are saying.

Put simply, there are no proportional reasons for a Catholic to vote for President Obama.

I suppose they could if they were completely absolutely ignorant and thought Obama and Democrats are the prolife party, etc.



Not too many of those people exist though.

[followyourbliss]

You raise interesting points.

As a Catholic, have you relinquished your conscience and responsibility in a democracy. Or is the Church dictating who you will vote for and what the repercussions will be if you veer from that path?

Also, Obama is not pro-abortion, as is often stated on this forum. He is pro-choice. That allows folks--Catholics and non-Catholics—the right o follow their conscience.

Also, you state that two Catholic Bishops opposed the Ryan budget. Why is it so easy to dismiss their position taken in the spirit of Jesus' instruction to love the poor, while embracing the others?

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by zenith15

I was browsing in a Catholic bookstore the other day and ran across a pamphlet (NOT the Faithful Citizenship one by the USCCB) that stated in no uncertain terms that NO catholic may EVER vote for a candidate who is pro choice, no matter if they feel the other candidate is wrong in every regard but that one. There was another item I saw while there--a book--that stated you CANNOT be a Catholic and a democrat at the same time. Neither the pamphlet nor the book had an Imprimateur or a Nihil Obstat.

Without starting an argument over morality, intrinsic evil, etc I just want to know if the Church itself teaches this specifically, and if it teaches literally that one may NEVER vote for a pro choice candidate regardless of the flaws they may see, however serious, in the pro life candidate.

Just a plain answer with a citation on where the information came from is all I am looking for.

Thanks in advance.

I know you said what you saw was not the guide from the USCCB. But it says "It does not offer a voters guide, scorecard of issues, or direction on how to vote".

http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....57&postcount=1

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by followyourbliss

Also, Obama is not pro-abortion, as is often stated on this forum. He is pro-choice. That allows folks--Catholics and non-Catholics—the right o follow their conscience.

Correct. Thank you. President Obama as is the case with others who are pro choice is not pro abortion. He and his wife, Michelle, are actually the Christian parents of 2 young daughters. Had them baptized and they've even been known to attend church services together as a family.

As to the rest of what was in your post, I didn't quote it because I don't relinquish my conscience but Catholics here will have to answer whether they relinquish their conscience or ignore certain bishops. I think they will say they have formed their conscience to what their church teaches. God bless and peace.

[followyourbliss]

From a CNN religion blog:

"Polling numbers released Friday by CNN about the White House contraception dust-up illustrate this: Only 11% of Catholics polled said they should always obey official church teachings on moral issues like birth control and abortion.

To put this differently, 88% of Catholics in the poll said that it’s OK for Catholics to make up their own minds about these moral issues. That represents a growing trend. In 1992 only 70% supported the “make up their own minds” argument. In 1999 it was 80%.

Today’s Catholics are picky and even suspicious about political signals from the institutional church."

[gilliam]

Originally Posted by followyourbliss

From a CNN religion blog:

"Polling numbers released Friday by CNN about the White House contraception dust-up illustrate this: Only 11% of Catholics polled said they should always obey official church teachings on moral issues like birth control and abortion.

To put this differently, 88% of Catholics in the poll said that it’s OK for Catholics to make up their own minds about these moral issues. That represents a growing trend. In 1992 only 70% supported the “make up their own minds” argument. In 1999 it was 80%.

Today’s Catholics are picky and even suspicious about political signals from the institutional church."

Catholics' Presidential Pick Differs by Ethnicity, Religiosity

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by followyourbliss

From a CNN religion blog:

"Polling numbers released Friday by CNN about the White House contraception dust-up illustrate this: Only 11% of Catholics polled said they should always obey official church teachings on moral issues like birth control and abortion.

To put this differently, 88% of Catholics in the poll said that it’s OK for Catholics to make up their own minds about these moral issues. That represents a growing trend. In 1992 only 70% supported the “make up their own minds” argument. In 1999 it was 80%.

Today’s Catholics are picky and even suspicious about political signals from the institutional church."

The poll might say that but I've seen Catholics refer to those Catholics you speak of in the poll as "Catholics" or CINO.

[He Man]

Originally Posted by CMatt25

Correct. Thank you. President Obama as is the case with others who are pro choice is not pro abortion. He and his wife, Michelle, are actually the Christian parents of 2 young daughters. Had them baptized and they've even been known to attend church services together as a family.

As to the rest of what was in your post, I didn't quote it because I don't relinquish my conscience but Catholics here will have to answer whether they relinquish their conscience or ignore certain bishops. I think they will say they have formed their conscience to what their church teaches. God bless and peace.

He's also the man who said he wouldn't want his daughters punished with a baby, as a defense of abortion. He has a pro-abortion voting record as a Senator. He rescinded the Mexico City policy his first day in office.

You know Matt, it is fine to vote however you want, but you really shouldn't keep coming to a Catholic Website and presenting false information in forums where Catholics try to stay informed. On the off chance anyone actually listens to you, you are doing a disservice to them by leading them away from Catholic teaching.

As far as the Ryan budget, Bishops and Cardinals approved of it. If you and your buddies on here want to harp on the two Bishops who had issue (on two small areas), so be it. No one takes that sort of childish cherry picking seriously anyway.

[followyourbliss]

Re: childish cherry picking comment

It's disappointing to see forum members scorning fellow members for expressing their opinion. Isn't that the point of the forum? I'm here to learn what others believe and how they live their faith.

I don't agree with 90% of what I've read here, but I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

BTW, nobody is "right," especially when it comes to religion. That's why they call it faith.

[CMatt25]

Originally Posted by He Man

He's also the man who said he wouldn't want his daughters punished with a baby, as a defense of abortion. He has a pro-abortion voting record as a Senator. He rescinded the Mexico City policy his first day in office.

You know Matt, it is fine to vote however you want, but you really shouldn't keep coming to a Catholic Website and presenting false information in forums where Catholics try to stay informed. On the off chance anyone actually listens to you, you are doing a disservice to them by leading them away from Catholic teaching.

As far as the Ryan budget, Bishops and Cardinals approved of it. If you and your buddies on here want to harp on the two Bishops who had issue (on two small areas), so be it. No one takes that sort of childish cherry picking seriously anyway.

He Man, anyone who looks at my religion or profile can see I am not a Catholic. They shouldn't think I am informing Catholics nor leading them astray. I am merely discussing world news and politics here with Catholics and non Catholics. Just like any other non Catholic.