Contrition and attrition - Page 2

MeganKichler · #16 Aug 10, '12, 11:16 pm

well, if you're saying that all Christians are catholics bc of the call of unity, then yes. but if you're saying only the catholic denomination is going to heaven and baptists (etc) are going to hell, then the above contadict your statement. i'd like proof that only those of the catholic denomination are going to heaven and all other christian denominations are going to hell with non believers.

thistle · #17 Aug 10, '12, 11:29 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeganKichler

well, if you're saying that all Christians are catholics bc of the call of unity, then yes. but if you're saying only the catholic denomination is going to heaven and baptists (etc) are going to hell, then the above contadict your statement. i'd like proof that only those of the catholic denomination are going to heaven and all other christian denominations are going to hell with non believers.

You are quoting bits from the CCC without understanding what they mean.

In the first place the Catholic Church is not a denomination. It was the only Church established by Christ.

What does the Catholic Church teach?

- Baptism is necessary for salvation (but does not ensure it as you must die in a state of grace).

- There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

So how can you be baptised and Catholic/deemed to be Catholic? There are 4 ways:

- Sacramental Baptism as a Catholic
- Baptism of Blood (non-Catholic dying for the Catholic Faith)
- Baptism of Desire - Explicit (e.g. a catechumen going through RCIA)
- Baptism of Desire - Implicit (invincible ignorance which means those who through no fault of their own do not know Christ, His Gospel, or His Church but still live a life according to the teachings of Christ in that ignorance)

You can debate who may or may not be included under invincible ignorance but outside the above 4 there is no salvation.

Anyone who consciously rejects Christ or his Church (The Catholic Church) and dies unrepentant will not be saved.

MeganKichler · #18 Aug 10, '12, 11:43 pm

i don't think you're picking up what i'm putting down. as there are different types of Christianity, it is a denomination. regardless, i read the context before taking those bits and peices out. i have never once heard, read, been taught, that those outside of the catholic chucrch are going to hell. in fact, several catholics (including priests and my bishop) have taught that "the church" includes all those that have been baptised and believe in Christ are all a part of the body of Christ. not just those who profess to be catholic. I don't think Christ is going to say "ah. I see you confessed you were a sinner, really were sorry in your heart for your sins, got baptised, live a great life in service to God, buuuut you never went to a catholic church and became catholic. greatful for the love and worship, but sorry, you're going to hell." i just do not see where that fits in to HIS teachings.

MeganKichler · #19 Aug 10, '12, 11:49 pm

i see a little more precision here. ok. yes any of those who deny christ and his teachings are going to hell. just so i'm clear, we are both saying that yes you have to accept him, have to be baptised (whichever way) and that all churches (no matter their denomination - for lack of better word) are all a part of the church as long as they teach , we'll for simplicity call them the truths? this may be where the misunderstanding lies.

thistle · #20 Aug 11, '12, 2:57 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeganKichler

i don't think you're picking up what i'm putting down. as there are different types of Christianity, it is a denomination. regardless, i read the context before taking those bits and peices out. i have never once heard, read, been taught, that those outside of the catholic chucrch are going to hell. in fact, several catholics (including priests and my bishop) have taught that "the church" includes all those that have been baptised and believe in Christ are all a part of the body of Christ. not just those who profess to be catholic. I don't think Christ is going to say "ah. I see you confessed you were a sinner, really were sorry in your heart for your sins, got baptised, live a great life in service to God, buuuut you never went to a catholic church and became catholic. greatful for the love and worship, but sorry, you're going to hell." i just do not see where that fits in to HIS teachings.

The Catholic Church was established by Christ and given authority to bind and loose in matters of faith and morals. That means in matters of faith and morals the Church can never be in error. Its teachings have the full authority of Christ behind them. What the Church teaches ARE the teachings of Christ.
No other Church was established by Christ. All non-Catholic Christian communities were established by men.
The Catholic Church is the only church. It is NOT a denomination
Anyone who consciously rejects the Catholic Church and dies unrepentant will not be saved.
I already explained in my previous post what it means to be baptised and Catholic. Nothing outside that results in salvation.

MeganKichler · #21 Aug 11, '12, 10:58 am

well, it's been interesting debating this with you. i mean that honestly. i don't think you can grow in your faith if you don't explore it with others. i'll talk to my priest about it and get some one on one spiritual guidance here. God bless!

thistle · #22 Aug 11, '12, 4:56 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeganKichler

well, it's been interesting debating this with you. i mean that honestly. i don't think you can grow in your faith if you don't explore it with others. i'll talk to my priest about it and get some one on one spiritual guidance here. God bless!

God bless you too and we all hope to welcome you home. I was a born and brought up Methodist but God gave me the grace to see the truth.