Protestants reforming ?

[hn160]

Originally Posted by JPeter

The joint declaration on Justification does not even make sense! When Lutherans talk about faith showing itself in works they mean something totally different than Catholics do. The Lutheran understanding is correct. There is no way that the Lutherans can compromise with Catholics on this doctrine. The teachings are totally different.

I have been following these posts, because I have been busy with Vacation Bible School at our church. You are absolutely right about the so called agreement on Justification between Roman Catholics and the Lutheran World Federation ( JDDJ ). The Catholics never changed their view of Justification that was established by the Council of Trent. They still say that Works play a part in our being justified before God, that Christ didn't do it all. You sound more Lutheran than some Lutherans.

[benjohnson]

Originally Posted by JPeter

The joint declaration on Justification does not even make sense! When Lutherans talk about faith showing itself in works they mean something totally different than Catholics do. The Lutheran understanding is correct. There is no way that the Lutherans can compromise with Catholics on this doctrine. The teachings are totally different.

From the Lutheran side, I don't think there's any compromise as all, just a better mutual understanding.

EDIT: Seeing some of the strong reactions, I'm going to go back and read it again, but my first impression was that the Catholic Church really defined their viewpoint to encompas a more Lutheran view.

[CopticChristian]

Originally Posted by Chuck1

Hi I was thinking now obviously todays Protestants are differnt from the 1500s etc were they reforming against the teaching or the people who were abusing the church and power ?
Also below I posted a link to a YouTube clip and saw what they did ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=un2qx...e_gdata_player
Thanks chuck

Chuck,

You posted a link to youtube and saw who did what?

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by benjohnson

From the Lutheran side, I don't think there's any compromise as all, just a better mutual understanding.

EDIT: Seeing some of the strong reactions, I'm going to go back and read it again, but my first impression was that the Catholic Church really defined their viewpoint to encompas a more Lutheran view.

Jon

[Prosmith]

Originally Posted by enickman

Yes you are. We can do no work to attain the grace God gives us. But we must work to keep ourselves in that grace. That doesn't mean you have to go build a shelter for the homeless to stay in good standing. It can mean as little as working to stay away from sin. Things like abstaining from things like sexual temptation or other selfish desires is considered work. We need only to look at Adam and Eve to see how we can take ourselves from God's grace through bad works(sin). God doesn't take the gift away, we do by our actions.

Again, nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say we can earn our salvation through works. Christ earned our salvation for us. I would appreciate you stop saying that we teach something that we don't.

I don't think he is saying anything that is out of school. I am an ex cradle Catholic and I had precisely this same discussion with my parish priest approx. 10 years ago and he said himself that grace alone by faith alone was heretical. JPeter and I both know that this is wrong. To stay in God's grace requires work from the Holy Spirit that far exceeds what we can do for ourselves. It is because of the cross that we HAVE ALREADY been saved.

[enickman]

Originally Posted by Prosmith

I don't think he is saying anything that is out of school. I am an ex cradle Catholic and I had precisely this same discussion with my parish priest approx. 10 years ago and he said himself that grace alone by faith alone was heretical. JPeter and I both know that this is wrong. To stay in God's grace requires work from the Holy Spirit that far exceeds what we can do for ourselves. It is because of the cross that we HAVE ALREADY been saved.

Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:

1. Jesus died for our salvation.
2. No amount of good works are enough to attain the grace we have been given because of Christ's death.
3. Through our bad works (sin) we can lose that grace for ourselves.
4. We have been instructed to love one another, this is considered a good work, though by itself isn't enough to earn us salvation.
5. We are supposed to have faith. But only living by believing and ignoring our sins (bad works) we can lose the grace that has been given to us. Just as Adam and Eve lost their grace by disobeying God.
6. We are judged by our faith and our works.

[JPeter]

Yes you are. We can do no work to attain the grace God gives us. But we must work to keep ourselves in that grace. That doesn't mean you have to go build a shelter for the homeless to stay in good standing. It can mean as little as working to stay away from sin. Things like abstaining from things like sexual temptation or other selfish desires is considered work. We need only to look at Adam and Eve to see how we can take ourselves from God's grace through bad works(sin). God doesn't take the gift away, we do by our actions.

Again, nowhere in Catholic teaching does it say we can earn our salvation through works. Christ earned our salvation for us. I would appreciate you stop saying that we teach something that we don't.

So Justification is not a process?

[JPeter]

Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:

1. Jesus died for our salvation.
2. No amount of good works are enough to attain the grace we have been given because of Christ's death.
3. Through our bad works (sin) we can lose that grace for ourselves.
4. We have been instructed to love one another, this is considered a good work, though by itself isn't enough to earn us salvation.
5. We are supposed to have faith. But only living by believing and ignoring our sins (bad works) we can lose the grace that has been given to us. Just as Adam and Eve lost their grace by disobeying God.
6. We are judged by our faith and our works.

enickman,

You keep missing the point. Just because you don't use the word "earn" does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing. Once salvation becomes something that I do (even in part) it ceases to be a free gift and becomes something I have earned or deserve. I am not trying to be rude but help me to understand how you don't believe in works righteousness? its like saying that Jesus died on the cross so that I could now try to act like a good person. Or like Jesus threw me the rope and did some of it, but I held on and got myself to safety. Jesus rescued us He did it all. It's not about us.Philippians 2 :12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

[JPeter]

Originally Posted by hn160

I have been following these posts, because I have been busy with Vacation Bible School at our church. You are absolutely right about the so called agreement on Justification between Roman Catholics and the Lutheran World Federation ( JDDJ ). The Catholics never changed their view of Justification that was established by the Council of Trent. They still say that Works play a part in our being justified before God, that Christ didn't do it all. You sound more Lutheran than some Lutherans.

The Lutheran view of sola fide is completely inline with the Anglican formularies. We would not go as far as your confessions do in everything though. With that being said I believe the Lutheran confessions are mostly correct. Like the Lutheran Confessions are binding for Lutherans, the Anglican formularies are binding for Anglicans. If an Anglican denies sola fide, then he is not an Anglican. There are a lot of Churches that have the Anglican name on the outside but not the Anglican faith on the inside.

[cmforte]

Originally Posted by JPeter

Your priest was correct. Please allow me to explain this in the simplest terms possible:



enickman,

You keep missing the point. Just because you don't use the word "earn" does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing. Once salvation becomes something that I do (even in part) it ceases to be a free gift and becomes something I have earned or deserve. I am not trying to be rude but help me to understand how you don't believe in works righteousness? its like saying that Jesus died on the cross so that I could now try to act like a good person. Or like Jesus threw me the rope and did some of it, but I held on and got myself to safety. Jesus rescued us He did it all. It's not about us.Philippians 2 :12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Actually, enickman is 100% correct. You're just not understanding. We don't work FOR salvation. But we "work" to KEEP salvation. Unless you believe in "once saved, always saved," which we don't. I can go ahead and quote a whole lot of Scripture if you want.

-Chris

[JonNC]

Originally Posted by JPeter

You keep missing the point. Just because you don't use the word "earn" does not change the reality of what you are doing. The Catholic church teaches that Justification is a process. This process according to Roman Catholics involves your actions along with Gods action. So your justification moves away from what Jesus has done for you and onto what your doing.

I generally agree with what you're saying, but just for fun...

When I was confirmed, these were the words:
The Father in heaven, for Jesus' sake, renew and increase in you the gift of the Holy Spirit, to your strengthening in faith, to your growing in grace, to your patience in suffering, and to the blessed hope of everlasting life.

These are words, essentially, of sanctification. We do work out are salvation in fear and trembling. If I am to grow in grace, am I not responding and participating, with the help and encouragement of the Holy Spirit? Is it not then also true to say that if we are growing in grace, that a process is involved? Sure, we distinguish between justification and sanctification (justification comes by grace through faith, a free gift we cannot earn), but it isn't it also true that "there is no justification without sanctification"?

Jon

[pablope]

Originally Posted by Prosmith

I don't think he is saying anything that is out of school. I am an ex cradle Catholic and I had precisely this same discussion with my parish priest approx. 10 years ago and he said himself that grace alone by faith alone was heretical.

JPeter and I both know that this is wrong.


To stay in God's grace requires work from the Holy Spirit that far exceeds what we can do for ourselves. It is because of the cross that we HAVE ALREADY been saved.

How did you and Jpeter come to the conclusion that it is wrong? Did you decide it is wrong? Or did someone tell you that it is wrong?

Either way, whether it was your conclusion or somebody else, where did you get the authority to declare the teaching of the Catholic church is wrong?

To whom did you submit to tell you that the teaching you espouse is correct?

Could it be that you are the one who is in error instead? Have you looked at that possibility?

Have you applied this verse to determine the truth of what you believe:


From 1john4:6.............6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

[pablope]

Originally Posted by JPeter

The Lutheran view of sola fide is completely inline with the Anglican formularies. We would not go as far as your confessions do in everything though. With that being said I believe the Lutheran confessions are mostly correct. Like the Lutheran Confessions are binding for Lutherans, the Anglican formularies are binding for Anglicans. If an Anglican denies sola fide, then he is not an Anglican. There are a lot of Churches that have the Anglican name on the outside but not the Anglican faith on the inside.

How do you know that? Did you decide that for yourself? Or are you taking somebody's declaration they are true? And where did that authority come from to declare they are correct?

[JPeter]

Originally Posted by cmforte

Actually, enickman is 100% correct. You're just not understanding. We don't work FOR salvation. But we "work" to KEEP salvation. Unless you believe in "once saved, always saved," which we don't. I can go ahead and quote a whole lot of Scripture if you want.

-Chris

You can quote them if you would like. I do not see the essential difference in what your saying. Whether you work for salvation or to keep salvation does not change that fact that your making good works a part of Justification rather than the result. Your deeds do not justify you before God nor do they keep you Justified.

We can refuse God's free gift of salvation and we can fall away as a result. But this does not make your argument flow because IT IS FINISHED!

[GKC]

Originally Posted by JPeter

The Lutheran view of sola fide is completely inline with the Anglican formularies. We would not go as far as your confessions do in everything though. With that being said I believe the Lutheran confessions are mostly correct. Like the Lutheran Confessions are binding for Lutherans, the Anglican formularies are binding for Anglicans. If an Anglican denies sola fide, then he is not an Anglican. There are a lot of Churches that have the Anglican name on the outside but not the Anglican faith on the inside.

Which Anglican formulary are you thinking of, which would make sola fide de fide for Anglicans, generally, definitively?

GKC