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  #91  
Old Aug 25, '12, 9:05 pm
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
Those exorcists are not successors of Peter. They are not of the Magisterium. They share only in extremely limited circumstances (assuming they are all priests, possibly some are not) in the charism of infallibility.

The very fact of those who ARE of the Magisterium promulgating use of the vernacular means that they do not believe that Latin has any special power in and of itself over demons - certainly there are no magisterial pronouncements preferring Latin exorcisms to vernacular ones unlike, say, the marked precedence given to communion in the hand or male altar servers or the like.
I think you meant to type "on the tongue." The Church does not give precedence to Communion in the hand. That is a special permission that was granted in order to try to reduce the scandal that was resulting from its widespread illicit use. (If you wish to further discuss CITH though, please start another thread.)

Lily, I think you may have misunderstood something somewhere because no one said that the statement "the devil hates Latin" was infallible, which would make it something that every Catholic had to believe by faith. You have the liberty to personally disagree, but to say that it's not infallible is not an argument against its veracity. On the other side, the Magisterium has never said anything that indicates that the Latin language is not more effective at driving away evil and has never infallibly made any declaration to support your view as well. The actual evidence that supports this claim are expert opinions of exorcists that have performed many many exorcisms. What the Magisterium actually has said on this matter actually does seem to support such a view. Have you read the many papal declarations on the Latin language yet?

Here is one that may be of particular interest which came from the pope who convened Vatican II:

"the Latin language 'can be called truly catholic.' It has been consecrated through constant use by the Apostolic See, the mother and teacher of all Churches, and must be esteemed 'a treasure...of incomparable worth.'"

What is the first thing that comes to mind when you hear the word "consecrate"? We use it all the time when referring to the blessed sacrament being "consecrated," which means "to make sacred." Bread and wine are made sacred when they are turned into the Body and Blood of our Lord. The pope here is saying that the Latin language has been made sacred. The word sacred has the meaning of being set apart as something holy. Certainly the devil is going to hate anything sacred. Obviously no other language has been in constant use by the Apostolic See, so it makes logical sense that Latin would thereby be more effective at driving away the demonic than an ordinary vulgar tongue. Again this is not de fide, so you can disagree, but if you do, it may be worthwhile or at least fair to also ask yourself whether you have any magisterial teachings that actually support your opinion.
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  #92  
Old Aug 25, '12, 9:23 pm
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LilyM LilyM is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

Yes I meant to say communion on the tongue of course.

No, the fact that it has not been said infallibly is not evidence against it.

However the mere fact that a Pope or Popes - or anyone - HAVE said it is equally not evidence for its truth. If that were the case, then the fact that the current Pope adores cats and Mozart means we should all forthwith prefer them to dogs and Beethoven!

And the Pope's opinion that Latin has been somehow made sacred is meant to be taken just as that. If it were meant otherwise he (and his successors who would have been bound by it) would have forbidden the use of any other language - including Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, none of which have been so expressed to be so consecrated.

The Kyrie, the Alleluia and the word 'Sabaoth' would all have been abolished. The rights of Eastern churches to their particular languages would have been revoked.

In Papal teaching, as in any other, actions can speak much more loudly than words. And the lack of action in this instance, despite the fine rhetoric, fairly speaks volumes.
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  #93  
Old Aug 26, '12, 12:46 am
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Do you believe in holy water?
I believe in God.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
That God can endow ordinary water with supernatural qualities as a result of a prayer being attached to it?
Holy water isn't something supernatural. It is water that is blessed. Again, you are trying to assign magical qualities which is something the Church doesn't do nor teach.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Or do you think that is "superstitious" too?
The way you described it, yes.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
God uses matter to accomplish supernatural things. God consecrates matter, he makes it holy. If God can do this to physical matter, do you believe it "cultish" to think that he could also do this for a language? I think an unbiased mind would at least admit this to be a possibility.
I think an unbiased mind would this its ridiculous to even think that.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Please respond to this post: http://forums.catholic.com/showpost....1&postcount=63 Again notice the quote from a Pope who said that the Latin language has been "consecrated."
Is that Ex Cathedra? Also, you are misinterpreting what "consecrated" means.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
And certainly nothing in Church teaching contradicts this assertion either.
Actually there is, thou shalt not worship false idols. Even St. Stephen charged the Jews with idolatry for assigning magical properties to the temple, believing the temple can contain God.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Obviously we are not dealing with a matter that is de fide, but it is the expert testimony of those who deal with these things. You obviously reject their testimony, and in the process you are also essentially calling the Vatican's chief exorcist "absurd," "ridiculous," an "idolator," and one who promotes "cultish" views. You can have your own opinion and disagree whether Latin is more effective at driving away the demonic, but there is no need to demonize those who disagree with you. (pun intended)
I really find it funny that when something supports someone's personal belief and interpretation, suddenly that person is an authority. But when you present something from age old Church Tradition and someone personally doesn't agree with it, suddenly it's optional belief because it was never pronounced de fide.

Second, where is the proof that the exorcist even made this claim? Its easy to say that he said it, but did he really say it? Or is this a case of, "its on a website promoting something I already believe in, therefore it must be true."
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  #94  
Old Aug 26, '12, 4:47 am
OraLabora OraLabora is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Prayer is more than just a feeling. Your argument is aimed at an emotional appeal, but a rational look at the facts demands more. You argue such as it's the end of the world and people have hardships and problems so why bother learning to pray in Latin or even talk about it at all. It is precisely because of these problems and precisely because souls are in trouble that we should pray in Latin!

Praying in this language benefits us so much more than just a basic "attraction." There is a much deeper spirituality involved that is also tied to the Eucharist, as Pope John Paul II himself admitted. It is precisely because we can't do it alone that we need both Christ and his Body, the Church. The Latin language unites us with all those other faithful Catholics throughout the world. We can all pray together in union with the holy popes and saints in the same language they have prayed throughout the centuries. Such a visible and tangible union can bring such great consolations.

There is nothing at all prideful in wanting to pray in union with the pope or the Church and to accuse others of such a thing without full knowledge would be a sin. You cannot judge the hearts and intents of others. If you were referring to yourself as being proud and Pharisaical in your reasoning for praying in Latin, then I would ask that you please be cautious not to project your own intentions onto other sincere Catholics.

It pains me to see others hurling insults at people who have a sincere burning desire to follow Christ and his Church through her teachings and traditions that have been handed down to us by popes throughout the centuries. To hurl such insults and accusations at Catholics who wish to pray in the language in which popes both pray and have urged the faithful to pray is by extension also hurling those same insults at those popes themselves.
I make a distinction between liturgical prayer and personal prayer. Personal prayer does not have to be in Latin.

Liturgical prayer does not have to be in Latin but it can be in Latin for various reasons. I pray liturgically in Latin.

But I'm a Roman Catholic, it's part of my patrimony and it's a part I think is important to preserve.

It does not however, mean liturgical prayer has to be exclusively in Latin. Nor does it mean that Latin is any more efficacious than other languages for Liturgical prayer in a Church that has moved well beyond its traditional boundaries to places where Latin has little or no cultural significance and in fact can be a hindrance.

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Do you believe in holy water? That God can endow ordinary water with supernatural qualities as a result of a prayer being attached to it? Or do you think that is "superstitious" too? God uses matter to accomplish supernatural things. God consecrates matter, he makes it holy. If God can do this to physical matter, do you believe it "cultish" to think that he could also do this for a language? I think an unbiased mind would at least admit this to be a possibility.
You need to learn the difference between a sacramental and a sacrament. Holy water holds no magic powers. It is water that has been blessed as a reminder of our baptism. Our abbot gave us a very good talking to on this subject during the H1N1 crisis when holy water had been removed from all the fonts. One oblate in formation claimed this was ridiculous because nobody can get sick from holy water. The abbot gave her a polite but direct dressing down for mixing up a sacramental with a sacrament. Holy water is water that has been blessed. No more, no less.

I think it's important to learn the difference. I see far too many people here use things like holy water or rosaries as a talisman with magic powers. This is contrary to the faith in fact it's a danger to the faith and is a form of idolatry and superstition. Believing that holy water has supernatural powers is a danger to the faith. Only God has supernatural powers.
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  #95  
Old Aug 26, '12, 8:58 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by una fides View Post
Then your quibble is with the wording that the pope chose to use.
No quibble with the pope's wording. The pope did not mean every Catholic. As I have said before and others have said elsewhere, one must look to the audience that the pope is addressing.

The pope was addressing the Latin Church so when he says "all Catholics" he means all Latin Catholics.

The quibble is with you and your inability to parse the statements of the Church and popes according to the audiences being addressed.
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  #96  
Old Aug 26, '12, 9:24 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
Latin is not in any way beneficial for Eastern Catholics.
How about Greek or Syriac, or some of the other ancient languages that were addressed, though not specifically, in Veterum Sapientia?
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  #97  
Old Aug 26, '12, 9:41 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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How about Greek or Syriac, or some of the other ancient languages that were addressed, though not specifically, in Veterum Sapientia?
I believe that this would depend on which tradition you are speaking of.

Yes we Byzantines do use Greek in our Liturgy but I believe that if any language would be put forward for private prayers besides the vernacular it would be Church Slavonic.

But IMHO using any language different from the one that a person thinks in (usually their native language unless they are totally immersed in an other one) in their private prayers is not beneficial.
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  #98  
Old Aug 26, '12, 9:57 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
t does not however, mean liturgical prayer has to be exclusively in Latin. Nor does it mean that Latin is any more efficacious than other languages for Liturgical prayer in a Church that has moved well beyond its traditional boundaries to places where Latin has little or no cultural significance and in fact can be a hindrance.
I see what you're saying for the most part but I have to point out that the Church in its rich history chose its words carefully ("Sabaoth," "clementissime," "Kyrie eleison," etc.) for use in its liturgy to make it as efficacious as possible for everyone. How can this be achieved with committees that revise translations every 20-40 years for targetted populations? The poetry (alliteration, rhyme, meter, etc.) all change and each retranslation only removes one further from the original, the new English translation notwhithstanding. It would be like Cliff's notes upon previous Cliff's notes in an attempt to rewrite Shakespeare in English or in Chinese. Sure they may understand the plot of Hamlet better but it just wouldn't be Shakespeare, who wasn't just about plots.
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  #99  
Old Aug 26, '12, 10:09 am
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by LilyM View Post
However the mere fact that a Pope or Popes - or anyone - HAVE said it is equally not evidence for its truth. If that were the case, then the fact that the current Pope adores cats and Mozart means we should all forthwith prefer them to dogs and Beethoven!

And the Pope's opinion that Latin has been somehow made sacred is meant to be taken just as that. If it were meant otherwise he (and his successors who would have been bound by it) would have forbidden the use of any other language - including Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, none of which have been so expressed to be so consecrated.

The Kyrie, the Alleluia and the word 'Sabaoth' would all have been abolished. The rights of Eastern churches to their particular languages would have been revoked.

In Papal teaching, as in any other, actions can speak much more loudly than words. And the lack of action in this instance, despite the fine rhetoric, fairly speaks volumes.
Lily, you are absolutely right to think that if the pope had mentioned in a personal correspodance that he personally favors Latin or the like then it would solely be his opinion and we would not thereby owe it our assent. However, the citations I have presented are from papal encyclicals, which is an authoritative magisterial document. While everything contained within is not infallible, it is an authentic presentation of the Church's ordinary magisterium to which we owe our religious assent. Here is what the Church's official concerning the authority of encyclicals:

"It is not to be thought that what is set down in Encyclical letters does not demand assent in itself, because in this the popes do not exercise the supreme power of their magisterium. For these matters are taught by the ordinary magisterium, regarding which the following is pertinent: “He who heareth you, heareth Me.” (Luke 10:16); and usually what is set forth and inculcated in Encyclical Letters, already pertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their acts, after due consideration, express an opinion on a hitherto controversial matter, it is clear to all that this matter, according to the mind and will of the same Pontiffs, cannot any longer be considered a question of free discussion among theologians." (Pope Pius XII, Humani Generis).

The rest of your argument doesn't follow a natural progression. Just because the Latin language has been consecrated (made sacred) through its constant usage by the holy see, mother of all other Churches, doesn't mean that other languages are thereby not also still efficacious. Language is the vehicle or instrument through which we elevate our hearts and minds to God. If hypothetically speaking God were to endow one language with a special usage that by no means somehow degrades or makes all other languages less useful or special in their own way.
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  #100  
Old Aug 26, '12, 10:15 am
ProVobis ProVobis is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
But IMHO using any language different from the one that a person thinks in (usually their native language unless they are totally immersed in an other one) in their private prayers is not beneficial.
As my dad would always tell me, and no disrespect intended, this is just an excuse. With learning one can "think" in any terms imaginable, be it math, computers, whatnot. Polish was my first language. I didn't "think" in English until I was taught a certain amount of vocabulary. The anti-Latin crowd apparently did a pretty good job of preventing any kind of learning in Latin terms. I went to school in the 60's and know all this to be true. Given the chance, some people will learn and some won't. But if they're not given the chance, they never will learn.
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  #101  
Old Aug 26, '12, 11:23 am
Friar David, O.Carm Friar David, O.Carm is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
As my dad would always tell me, and no disrespect intended, this is just an excuse. With learning one can "think" in any terms imaginable, be it math, computers, whatnot. Polish was my first language. I didn't "think" in English until I was taught a certain amount of vocabulary. The anti-Latin crowd apparently did a pretty good job of preventing any kind of learning in Latin terms. I went to school in the 60's and know all this to be true. Given the chance, some people will learn and some won't. But if they're not given the chance, they never will learn.
My main reason for my opinion is that one be able to enter into spontaneous prayer.

One is not able to do this with only a superficial knowledge of a language.

What is being suggested here is that people learn a set of prayers by rote rather than by actually knowing the language in question.

On this point, like many others, we will just have to disagree.
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  #102  
Old Aug 26, '12, 7:49 pm
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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I believe in God.
Nice dodge there. Do you believe in the Church's teaching on holy water. Do you believe that holy water is able to drive away evil through the power of Christ? Do you believe that it is able to dispel demons and sickness? Do you believe that the use of holy water is also able to wash away venial sins?

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Holy water isn't something supernatural. It is water that is blessed. Again, you are trying to assign magical qualities which is something the Church doesn't do nor teach.
If you believe that healing, forgiving sins, and driving away evil spirits are "magical" then yes guilty as charged. These are all things that Christ himself did on earth and through his power he is able to do through the pious use of holy water.

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
The way you described it, yes [I do think it's superstitious to think God can use water to accomplish the supernatural].
I was merely explaining the Church's teaching on this matter, so you are essentially saying you think the Church's teaching is superstitious. Your qualm is not with me. I'm just the messenger.

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
I think an unbiased mind would this its ridiculous to even think that.
Then you are calling the Church's teaching on holy water ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Is that Ex Cathedra? Also, you are misinterpreting what "consecrated" means.
lol. Please read my post HERE where I cited the Church's teaching regarding teachings contained within papal encyclicals. If you only accept ex cathedra Church teachings and think everything else is up for grabs, then in all sincerity we need to be having a different discussion.

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Actually there is, thou shalt not worship false idols.
This is like trying to stretch a rubber band around an elephant. How is God using water to bring about a spiritual reality somehow idolatry? No one is worshiping the water here. Do you believe that venerating saints and relics is idolatry as well?? This is the traditional Catholic forum, so if you don't accept the Church's teachings then we really won't be getting anywhere in this discussion until other underlying issues could be addressed, but unfortunately that would be well outside the realm of this thread. I would be happy to discuss other issues with you via PM or if you want to start another thread on one of these topics.

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
I really find it funny that when something supports someone's personal belief and interpretation, suddenly that person is an authority. But when you present something from age old Church Tradition and someone personally doesn't agree with it, suddenly it's optional belief because it was never pronounced de fide.
Actually so far the Latin haters camp has tried that at least twice so far on this thread, yourself included. Yours was in this same post when you asked me where the Church defined something ex cathedra (Love your use of Latin btw! Kind of inavoidable when discussing Catholic topics isn't it! )

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Originally Posted by ConstantineTG View Post
Second, where is the proof that the exorcist even made this claim? Its easy to say that he said it, but did he really say it? Or is this a case of, "its on a website promoting something I already believe in, therefore it must be true."
http://www.religionandspirituality.c...l_hates_Latin/
Pretty sure I don't support the "religion and spirituality" website and that they would constitute a non-partisan third party source.

As I had suggested before, all this and more can be found on the Why Pray in Latin section of the website which is the topic of this thread.
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  #103  
Old Aug 26, '12, 8:08 pm
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
Big change from what has been said but yes I can agree that it would not be harmful to their souls.
How was that a "big change"? Can you please cite what I said previously that has changed? I think at best you may find that you may have misunderstood something I wrote. I keep writing over and over on here that no one proposed that eastern Catholics must learn prayers in Latin yet for some odd reason you keep accusing me of doing so...

You've already agreed that it would not hurt them. I still don't know what the hang up is to accept that it could even benefit an eastern Catholic if he wanted to learn a few common Latin prayers in order to show his fidelity and unity with Rome, which is the mother of all other Churches and be able to pray together in the same language with other Latin Rite Catholics around the world. The only reason someone would think that this would be harmful is if he either has difficulty accepting the authority Roman Church or fears that perhaps someone in the east could somehow lose his own identity by relating to his mother Church, which is obviously an absurd idea. It's really hard to understand why all the animosity towards the Church's language that popes have spoken of so highly. If you think proposing this hypothetical is somehow advocating that eastern Catholics need to or should therefore all start praying in Latin, then you are mistaken. The argument is limited to only saying that it's not an evil or bad thing when anyone of his own free will chooses to do so.
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  #104  
Old Aug 26, '12, 8:59 pm
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
It does not however, mean liturgical prayer has to be exclusively in Latin.
Agreed. To think that would be ridiculous. Who made this argument?

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
Nor does it mean that Latin is any more efficacious than other languages for Liturgical prayer in a Church that has moved well beyond its traditional boundaries to places where Latin has little or no cultural significance and in fact can be a hindrance.
Do you have any evidence to support your view or any Church teachings at all that says that Latin is no more efficacious than any other language and that Latin can also be a hindrance when it does not have "cultural significance"?

Are you familiar with papal teachings on the Latin language? Here's one I've already cited earlier:

"Of its very nature Latin is most suitable for promoting every form of culture among peoples. It gives rise to no jealousies. It does not favor any one nation, but presents itself with equal impartiality to all and is equally acceptable to all. (Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, 1962 A.D.)

Here's the post with a list of some good ones.

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
You need to learn the difference between a sacramental and a sacrament. Holy water holds no magic powers. It is water that has been blessed as a reminder of our baptism. Our abbot gave us a very good talking to on this subject during the H1N1 crisis ... Holy water is water that has been blessed. No more, no less.
Here is the link to the traditional blessing of holy water (in English for your reading pleasure). Let me know whether it fits within your understanding of sacramentals. Please understand that you are proposing arguments that fall under the spirit of vatican ii break with tradition theology on the Traditional Catholic forum.

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Originally Posted by OraLabora View Post
I think it's important to learn the difference. I see far too many people here use things like holy water or rosaries as a talisman with magic powers. This is contrary to the faith in fact it's a danger to the faith and is a form of idolatry and superstition. Believing that holy water has supernatural powers is a danger to the faith. Only God has supernatural powers.
And God uses water to convey his supernatural powers. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Jesus used mud and spit to heal a person's eyes and give sight to the blind. God used the handkerchiefs of St Paul to expel diseases and evil spirits from people (Acts 19:11-12). Yes sweaty handkerchiefs! Even St Peter's shadow was able to produce healing as well (Acts 5:15). This is the Catholic faith as has always been believed and understood from the earliest days and continues unbroken to the present. Our God is more powerful and he uses matter to accomplish the supernatural. He became man, took on human flesh. He turns bread and wine into his actual Body and Blood. God has no problem with matter. He makes it holy and sacred as it was intended from the beginning. It is the error of Gnosticism to think that matter is evil and that God cannot use it as a vehicle by which he can bring about supernatural realities. I strongly suggest reading up on the Church's traditional teaching regarding sacramentals and relics. You can start with your Baltimore Catechism!
Question: What is holy water?
Answer: Holy water is water blessed by the priest with solemn prayer to beg God's blessing on those who use it, and protection from the powers of darkness.
http://catholicism.about.com/od/baltimorecatechism/f/Question_301_BC.htm

Here is the Catholic Encyclopedia article on holy water that should also help: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07432a.htm

Last edited by una fides; Aug 26, '12 at 9:10 pm.
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  #105  
Old Aug 26, '12, 9:36 pm
una fides una fides is offline
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Default Re: Praying in Latin

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Originally Posted by Friar David, O.Carm View Post
My main reason for my opinion is that one be able to enter into spontaneous prayer.

One is not able to do this with only a superficial knowledge of a language.

What is being suggested here is that people learn a set of prayers by rote rather than by actually knowing the language in question.
I'm confused, why would someone learning prayers in Latin somehow stop them from being able to enter into spontaneous prayer? I mean it's not like learning Latin somehow stops people from being able to pray in their native tongue if they so chose. They would also be able to spontaneously offer up a prayer they've learned and understand in Latin. I do this all the time. I'm particularly fond of this one, which is part of the divine office:

Deus+in adjutorium meum intende
,
Domine ad adjuvandum me festina


O God, come to my assistance
O Lord, make haste to help me

Even if, let's say hypothetically the person did not even know what every single word meant but they knew that in that prayer they were asking and invoking God's help as they made the Sign of the Cross on themselves, that prayer could still be quite efficacious could it not? You may argue that it would be more if they understood every word, but I would add that understanding words themselves is not the same thing as praying from the heart. One is able to attach his intentions to Latin prayers just as much as in a native tongue. And you could pray an Ave Maria as you fall on your knees begging the Blessed Virgin's help for your particular problem. The many added benefits of doing so in Latin have already been explained on this thread and are explained on the praying in Latin website, but just to reiterate for practical example, there is an added comfort one gets when he knows he is praying in the language that unites him in a very special way with the Church throughout the world, with popes and saints throughout the ages, and with God who admires that person's devotion to his Holy Catholic Church.

If you don't want to pray in Latin or encourage others to do so, no one is twisting your arm, but when you come on the Trad forum and try to discourage others from praying in Latin you are actually only causing your anti-traditional side all the more harm since it only makes us want to pray in Latin all the more! We know of the opposition to tradition. That's why we call ourselves Traditional Catholics because we accept the teachings of the Church as they have always been understood and handed down throughout the centuries, and we agree with our popes that our Latin language is most certainly "a treasure of incomparable worth."
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