Why not distribute unconsecrated bread and wine at Mass to those unable to take part in the Eucharist? - Page 7

ByzCathCantor · #91 Aug 30, '12, 5:20 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewstx

After several years an Antiochian Mission opened and there the antidoron is done very differently. Twice. After the gifts, which is limited to Orthodox faithful. And then at the very end of Divine Liturgy when all present may have antidoron and kiss the blessing cross. [emphasis added]

It is the latter distribution that your described that most closely resembles the custom occasionally practiced in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church. Instead of venerating the cross, the faithful would be blessed with holy oil and receive the blessed bread (Mirovanije).

ConstantineTG · #92 Aug 30, '12, 5:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ByzCathCantor

It is the latter distribution that your described that most closely resembles the custom occasionally practiced in the Byzantine-Ruthenian Catholic Church. Instead of venerating the cross, the faithful would be blessed with holy oil and receive the blessed bread (Mirovanije).

Usually the anointing happens only during Feast Days. In this case our bread is from the Litya which was blessed at Vespers. And the wine we sprinkle on the bread because we only bless a little amount.

ByzCathCantor · #93 Aug 30, '12, 5:42 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

Usually the anointing happens only during Feast Days. In this case our bread is from the Litya which was blessed at Vespers. And the wine we sprinkle on the bread because we only bless a little amount.

This is the only time we do Mirovanije - on or within the octave of a feast. Blessed bread is distributed on this occasion only (not counting the sharing of the Artos on the Sunday of Thomas).

babochka · #94 Aug 30, '12, 10:21 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewstx

And then at the very end of Divine Liturgy when all present may have antidoron and kiss the blessing cross.

This is the practice in my Ruthenian parish.

lssanjose · #95 Aug 30, '12, 10:38 pm

I had gone to two divine liturgies, yesterday, and today, at an Orthodox parish. They each handed pieces from the same bread used for communion (not consecrated), for non Orthodox. I think this was a very warm gesture for people who aren't members of the faith. Today, at the funeral liturgy - which was quite moving, by the way - the priest set up the expectations, and explained closed communion. I, being non-orthodox, fully understood, and respected their reasoning. The priest further qualified the gesture, in allowing ALL - Orthodox, or not - to partake in the Wedding Banquet of the lamb.

ByzCathCantor, send Father Pipta my regards, and tell him Father Frank has gotten me rolling along nicely, and eagerly await (I'm uber patient, so no rush!) his "care package," for me.

ConstantineTG · #96 Aug 30, '12, 11:52 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by lssanjose

I had gone to two divine liturgies, yesterday, and today, at an Orthodox parish. They each handed pieces from the same bread used for communion (not consecrated), for non Orthodox. I think this was a very warm gesture for people who aren't members of the faith. Today, at the funeral liturgy - which was quite moving, by the way - the priest set up the expectations, and explained closed communion. I, being non-orthodox, fully understood, and respected their reasoning. The priest further qualified the gesture, in allowing ALL - Orthodox, or not - to partake in the Wedding Banquet of the lamb.

ByzCathCantor, send Father Pipta my regards, and tell him Father Frank has gotten me rolling along nicely, and eagerly await (I'm uber patient, so no rush!) his "care package," for me.

You are talking about the antidoron. Again, it was never meant to be a gesture for non-Orthodox. It was meant to for the faithful. Only in recent times when the non-Orthodox (or non-Catholic in case of Catholic Liturgies) weren't actually dismissed prior to the Liturgy of the Faithful did these people even get to the distribution of antidoron. And someone, somewhere decided it is okay for those who are not of the faith to receive the blessed bread as it is not the Eucharist.

lssanjose · #97 Aug 31, '12, 12:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

You are talking about the antidoron. Again, it was never meant to be a gesture for non-Orthodox. It was meant to for the faithful. Only in recent times when the non-Orthodox (or non-Catholic in case of Catholic Liturgies) weren't actually dismissed prior to the Liturgy of the Faithful did these people even get to the distribution of antidoron. And someone, somewhere decided it is okay for those who are not of the faith to receive the blessed bread as it is not the Eucharist.

Yeah, I know it's the antidoron. But I'm speaking more about how the Orthodox priest prefaced the action with his explanation why such an action took place.

I think, as long as the action is being prefaced with an explanation, there isn't need to raise a stink about it. That's what I was trying to get at - which was the real dilemma, for the OP: why the separation of hosts/wine for faithful, then non faithful.

gkoomen · #98 Aug 31, '12, 5:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG

But if you are Catholic, why partake of Catholic Sacraments? Would you take blessings from a Buddhist monk? We must understand and respect that Sacred things are only for the faithful.

I was exploring coming into the Church. I believed that this was the Body and Blood of my Jesus. Catholics WERE Christians - unlike Buddhists. I reverenced the Sacrament. After spending some very helpful instructional time with the Priest, I was fully received into the Church. I can see the hand of God in the entire process; and I'm so thankful to be here.

ByzCathCantor · #99 Aug 31, '12, 6:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by lssanjose

ByzCathCantor, send Father Pipta my regards, and tell him Father Frank has gotten me rolling along nicely, and eagerly await (I'm uber patient, so no rush!) his "care package," for me.

I shall. I have not seen Fr Pipta in a number of years, and I look forward to my visit to Holy Angels.

Flame4 · #**100** Aug 31, '12, 7:02 am

The Eucharist is NOT merely a nice gesture to make everyone feel welcome. Essentially it is God giving his entire self- body, blood, soul, and divinity to us.

What would be the point of giving unconsecrated bread out? It would just be a piece of bread. Churches usually have coffee socials and the like after mass to give out free food and to make people feel "welcome".

ConstantineTG · #**101** Aug 31, '12, 7:02 am

LOL, I obviously mistyped. I meant, "if you are NOT Catholic..."

TarkanAttila · #**102** Aug 31, '12, 11:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

It is clear from many threads on CAF that the prohibition on taking part in the Eucharist for non-Catholics, and Catholics in some situations causes distress and confusion.

Could this not be overcome at least in part by the distribution to these people of unconsecrated bread and wine, with appropriate words being said (other than 'body of Christ etc)?

Leaving aside the obvious practical considerations (conventions for avoiding people getting muddled as to which was which etc) is there any reason why this could not be done? And if there is a rule against it, would it not be helpful if the rule were changed?

It could be. Our Orthodox brothers - perhaps you've noticed - do as much with their "blessed bread". (Having attended a couple of Western Orthodox liturgies - the priest knew I was Catholic - I kinda know how it works.)

I don't think it should, though. Might just be me being a stick-in-the-mud, but Eucharist is, you know, a celebration not primarily of the communal aspect of the Last Supper, but most especially of the Sacrifice on the Cross (thus another title is the "Sacrifice of the Mass"). That is an important difference between Protestants and Catholics. They don't see the sacrificial aspect of the Eucharist.

Like I say. We could do a "blessed bread" thing like our Orthodox brothers. But I can't help but feel that it might undermine our efforts to show them the importance of partaking in the real Body and Blood.

I think it would promote an idea of unity that we don't actually have yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic Maiden

As you sign in as a Non Believer I am just wondering why this bothers you, after all the Catholic Church teaches what it teaches, and does what it does, in the way its prescribed for 2000 years, I will pray that you start to Believe and see that Our Way is not the Lord's Way. Let things that you dont believe in disturb you.::

That's what I'd like to know.

Generally I'm not a little suspicious when uninvolved parties make suggestions to opposing sides.

But I'll keep my conspiratorial thoughts to myself.

Hokomai · #**103** Sep 1, '12, 1:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TarkanAttila

That's what I'd like to know.

Generally I'm not a little suspicious when uninvolved parties make suggestions to opposing sides.

But I'll keep my conspiratorial thoughts to myself.

I am not on an opposing side. I do not oppose people holding beliefs. I am interested in belief. I personally try to avoid believing, as distinct from 'concluding' based on facts but have no objection to other people doing so.

My only 'opposition' arises to people who try to make me accept, or take part in expressing adherence to their beliefs, or not express my own thoughts.

On the other hand, I may have been assigned by the international organization of masonic new-age communist muslim protestant satan-worshipping folk mass-going liturgical dancing atheist cafeteria ex-Catholics to systematically destroy the Church by long and meandering threads on really obscure points on CAF. Who can tell?

Hokomai · #**104** Sep 1, '12, 1:20 am

Hey thanks everyone for some really interesting and though-provoking and educational replies to my OP. I got a real insight into how people in the eastern traditions feel about things, and about the range of attitudes in the western Church.

TarkanAttila · #**105** Sep 1, '12, 6:26 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hokomai

I am not on an opposing side. I do not oppose people holding beliefs. I am interested in belief. I personally try to avoid believing, as distinct from 'concluding' based on facts but have no objection to other people doing so.

Oh, I hardly think you're either Axis or Ally in this one. You're more like... Marvin the Martian.

Quote:

On the other hand, I may have been assigned by the international organization of masonic new-age communist muslim protestant satan-worshipping folk mass-going liturgical dancing atheist cafeteria ex-Catholics to systematically destroy the Church by long and meandering threads on really obscure points on CAF. Who can tell?

Atheists and the irreligious never really seemed like the sorts to join clandestine cultuses just to destroy a religious institution. It much rather seemed they'd rather take it apart brick by brick by themselves.