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  #31  
Old Jul 2, '12, 11:12 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
The point is, parental influence is the greatest indicator of success in life. A child reared by his married mother and father will more likely finish high school than one growing up in a single parent home.

Government programs have replaced the responsibility of the mother and the father to care for their children. Mothers are having multiple babies by multiple fathers. They can manage this due to subsidized housing and multiple families living in an apartment designed for a family of 3. Living in poverty is no fun, but some people actually lower their living expenses to accommodate to an income designed to be a partial subsidy.

The constant stream of new boyfriends contributes to child neglect and often abuse. The teachers I know in public schools say the kids are often exhausted from playing videos games past a decent bedtime. There is little discipline in these households other that yelling and hitting. One of the things we teach the homeless mother in the shelter where I volunteer is learning to love and respect their children. It is hard to believe, but true.
No, the point is that the poverty rate across the board has not remained constant since the 1960s - the original claim I was responding to.

Single parenthood, challenges to the nuclear family: believe it or not, these problems are not unique to the US, or indeed to developed countries with government programs. Visit Central America some time...
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #32  
Old Jul 2, '12, 12:00 pm
irishpatrick irishpatrick is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post
And I have seen right-leaning Christians who will fight to the death over marriage and abortion, and then fight equally hard to make sure that none of their hard earned money goes to the welfare programs that assist the poor.

Both sides have their blind spots.
Ahh, the problem with your statement is that conservatives give far more to charity, than do liberals. Conservatives believe THEY should be doing to giving, not the government, while liberals think that the government should do the giving. Both sides want to help the poor, one feels it should be freely given through charitable contributions, while the other side thinks the money should be taken from people in the form of mandatory taxes.
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  #33  
Old Jul 2, '12, 12:48 pm
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
No, the point is that the poverty rate across the board has not remained constant since the 1960s - the original claim I was responding to.

Single parenthood, challenges to the nuclear family: believe it or not, these problems are not unique to the US, or indeed to developed countries with government programs. Visit Central America some time...
We are discussing poverty in the US. 50 years of throwing billions of $$ at it has not solved anything. Fed anti-poverty program is a failure.

I live in the city where Pruit-Igoe was destroyed by the break up of the family.
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  #34  
Old Jul 2, '12, 2:06 pm
archangel04 archangel04 is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by Seeker1961 View Post
And I have seen right-leaning Christians who will fight to the death over marriage and abortion, and then fight equally hard to make sure that none of their hard earned money goes to the welfare programs that assist the poor.

Both sides have their blind spots.
And why should it go to well-fare? That system is broken! I've seen it abused so many times throughout my life. Tell me, how is it charitable to have a secular government take some of your honest wages and apply to them to well-fare, without giving you a choice? That's not charitable at all, because the person did not give away that money out of the goodness of his/her heart! That's basically stealing lol. Don't get me wrong we should give to the poor, but it should be done out of free will and not by some secular entity.
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  #35  
Old Jul 2, '12, 5:19 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
We are discussing poverty in the US. 50 years of throwing billions of $$ at it has not solved anything. Fed anti-poverty program is a failure.

I live in the city where Pruit-Igoe was destroyed by the break up of the family.
Poverty rates have declined at various times for various groups - that is a simple fact. Government programs alone cannot SOLVE poverty, not as long as factors such as economic recessions and declining quality of education remain realities.

To claim that govt programs have failed to make poverty disappear, is like complaining that there are leaves all over your yard even though you rake everyday! Your area might be windy, there might be trees all around, it might simply be Fall...the fault does not have to be with the efficiency of your raking. Your duty as a responsible homeowner is to keep on raking and perhaps trim some trees...
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #36  
Old Jul 3, '12, 2:36 am
MichaelTDoyle MichaelTDoyle is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
Poverty rates have declined at various times for various groups - that is a simple fact. Government programs alone cannot SOLVE poverty, not as long as factors such as economic recessions and declining quality of education remain realities.

To claim that govt programs have failed to make poverty disappear, is like complaining that there are leaves all over your yard even though you rake everyday! Your area might be windy, there might be trees all around, it might simply be Fall...the fault does not have to be with the efficiency of your raking. Your duty as a responsible homeowner is to keep on raking and perhaps trim some trees...
The economy being fluid and allowing class mobility is an argument to tear down government interference and allow capitalism to be the provider for opportunities for the poor.

No one argues a safety net for those who are mentally or physically incapable, but what the government has done is create permanent underclasses of poor who by subsisting at the impersonal largess of government (our taxes) have become dependent and thus have damaged their own self respect. The government is not helping here.

Just as raising the minimum wage limits the opportunities of the poor, your government is the biggest enemy of the poor--a wolf in sheep's clothing at their door.
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  #37  
Old Jul 3, '12, 6:32 am
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

Quote:
Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
Poverty rates have declined at various times for various groups - that is a simple fact. Government programs alone cannot SOLVE poverty, not as long as factors such as economic recessions and declining quality of education remain realities.

To claim that govt programs have failed to make poverty disappear, is like complaining that there are leaves all over your yard even though you rake everyday! Your area might be windy, there might be trees all around, it might simply be Fall...the fault does not have to be with the efficiency of your raking. Your duty as a responsible homeowner is to keep on raking and perhaps trim some trees...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelTDoyle View Post
The economy being fluid and allowing class mobility is an argument to tear down government interference and allow capitalism to be the provider for opportunities for the poor.

No one argues a safety net for those who are mentally or physically incapable, but what the government has done is create permanent underclasses of poor who by subsisting at the impersonal largess of government (our taxes) have become dependent and thus have damaged their own self respect. The government is not helping here.

Just as raising the minimum wage limits the opportunities of the poor, your government is the biggest enemy of the poor--a wolf in sheep's clothing at their door.
Michael-
This!

You said it better than I.
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  #38  
Old Jul 3, '12, 1:24 pm
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by MichaelTDoyle View Post
The economy being fluid and allowing class mobility is an argument to tear down government interference and allow capitalism to be the provider for opportunities for the poor.

No one argues a safety net for those who are mentally or physically incapable, but what the government has done is create permanent underclasses of poor who by subsisting at the impersonal largess of government (our taxes) have become dependent and thus have damaged their own self respect. The government is not helping here.

Just as raising the minimum wage limits the opportunities of the poor, your government is the biggest enemy of the poor--a wolf in sheep's clothing at their door.
I don't get your argument: if the poor remain poor, it's because of failed government programs but if people are able to move out of poverty it's because of the economy? How does that work?

As for the minimum wage argument, that just doesn't fly with me. People need a basic minimum to be able to access the basics of life - that's just incontrovertible, so how can one can argue against raising the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living? How else will businesses sell their products if a whole sector of society cannot afford to buy?
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #39  
Old Jul 6, '12, 7:58 am
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
I don't get your argument: if the poor remain poor, it's because of failed government programs but if people are able to move out of poverty it's because of the economy? How does that work?
Why should they work when they get subsidies for free? Remove the subsidies, the economy works, get a job. As I said below, people are willing to lower their economic expectations to the amount of the subsidy. If you grew up in a household like this, why would you expect anything different?
Quote:
As for the minimum wage argument, that just doesn't fly with me. People need a basic minimum to be able to access the basics of life - that's just incontrovertible, so how can one can argue against raising the minimum wage to keep up with the cost of living? How else will businesses sell their products if a whole sector of society cannot afford to buy?
Basic economics. Minimum wage is an artificial amount set by the federal government. It doesn't leave flexibility for the individual states where the cost of living might be less. States where the cost of living is higher can raise the minimum wage above the government's.

Labor rates go up, prices go up. For example, where I work, the job starts at minimum wage. For many who work for us, it's a second job. When the minimum wage goes up, our costs go up, and we have to renegotiate our contracts. Our customers aren't doing well in this economy, so they don't want to pay the increase. If we want to keep the contract, our only choice is to lay off workers and make the remaining workers work harder.

Sorry, that's just the way the free-market system works. You can try to manipulate the free market with regulations and mandates, but the market will always find its equilibrium. Look at the Soviet Union. Bread was cheap, people stood in line for hours, only to have it run out when it was their turn. Which markets were the most successful? The black markets. And the home-grown vegetable plots.
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  #40  
Old Jul 6, '12, 8:07 am
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by markomalley View Post
From Catholic World News, an interview with Archbishop Naumann:
(snip)

CWR: One striking aspect of Catholic social doctrine that is not often remarked upon is the emphasis on personal virtue. It seems to be overlooked. The term “social justice” is used a lot and criticized often; it is quite controversial. How do we as Catholics take back that term and regain it so we can say, “Authentic social justice is not a bad thing”?

Abp. Naumann: That’s a great question, and I think it’s important we try to reclaim that term because it is our vocabulary, but other people have taken it over. I think it has come to mean something that totally disregards some of the principles that are part of social justice, and subsidiarity is one of them. And I think, as you mention, that personal virtue is also one of those principles. Social justice doesn’t mean the state taking care of everybody, but empowering people so they can take care of themselves and their families. That’s the real dignity we want to help people achieve.

Part of my concern, which I expressed at the bishops’ meeting, is that people—who have good intentions and motivations—have too often looked to massive government programs to help the poor, yet we have a history now of almost 50 years with these programs and we don’t have fewer poor and we don’t have more people empowered. But we do have a weaker family life and weaker public morality. And so we have to look at it and ask, “Are these really the best ways to go about addressing the problem?” Not all of us, I think, agree with the way it has been addressed. Does the state have some role to play with the poor? Absolutely, I think, in terms of a safety net. But that doesn’t mean that we keep increasing the number of people who are dependent on the state in some way. That, to me, is the direction we’ve been going for the last 50 years.

(snip)

CWR: Many lay Catholics are frustrated there is little discussion about something you just touched on, which is the sort of moral responsibility that comes with dealing with the debt. There is a moral responsibility involved, as it is not right to continually rack up more debt for future generations.

Abp. Naumann: Yes, I think so. And because we haven’t the drastic consequences of this yet, I think it is easy for us to ignore. But eventually there are going to be consequences if we don’t address it, and they are going to be draconian for the poor and for everybody else in this country....

(snip)
A really good interview that everybody should read.
I found the following quote by our Archbishop Carlson hilarious:
Quote:
PARTISANSHIP DISMISSED

In an interview Thursday, Carlson dismissed claims that the bishops had a partisan plan to bring this issue alive during an election year, citing efforts in 2009 to work with the Obama administration on health care reform.

"There are three groups that have an interest in portraying this as partisan: The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, (NARAL Pro-Choice America) and Planned Parenthood," Carlson said. "We didn't choose the timing, the administration did."


Lori said Wednesday that the religious liberty campaign was not about parties, candidates or elections. "The government chose to pick a fight with us," he said.


Read more: http://www.stltoday.com/lifestyles/f...#ixzz1zr56SwM2
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  #41  
Old Jul 6, '12, 9:57 am
seekerz seekerz is offline
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by qui est ce View Post
Why should they work when they get subsidies for free? Remove the subsidies, the economy works, get a job. As I said below, people are willing to lower their economic expectations to the amount of the subsidy. If you grew up in a household like this, why would you expect anything different?
Not sure how that is a response to what I posted, but as to people lowering economic expectations....I'm guessing you did not grow up in households like those you refer to? I grew up in poverty and the last thing I ever saw anyone in my neighborhood do was 'lower their economic expectations' - to meet the income they were receiving from any source, or for any other reason for that matter. So I have no idea what you mean. The poor people I knew were generally very creative at finding ways to supplement their incomes. The negative aspect of this creative phenomenon, is sometimes referred to as 'hustling'.

Quote:
Basic economics. Minimum wage is an artificial amount set by the federal government. It doesn't leave flexibility for the individual states where the cost of living might be less. States where the cost of living is higher can raise the minimum wage above the government's.

Labor rates go up, prices go up. For example, where I work, the job starts at minimum wage. For many who work for us, it's a second job. When the minimum wage goes up, our costs go up, and we have to renegotiate our contracts. Our customers aren't doing well in this economy, so they don't want to pay the increase. If we want to keep the contract, our only choice is to lay off workers and make the remaining workers work harder.

Sorry, that's just the way the free-market system works. You can try to manipulate the free market with regulations and mandates, but the market will always find its equilibrium. Look at the Soviet Union. Bread was cheap, people stood in line for hours, only to have it run out when it was their turn. Which markets were the most successful? The black markets. And the home-grown vegetable plots.
I understand how the free market works. What I don't understand is how I hardly ever seem to see the word 'profits' in these 'economics made simple' posts...
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From the age of pharaohs through myriad mutations of the enduring human inclination to oppress and exclude through unjust remuneration, the basic justification has remained unchanged. It is the fear, affected or real, propounded by countless leaders, scholars, and statesman, that extending justice to all, will lead to national impoverishment and decline. Cyclical retelling of the Exodus story among people of faith serves to celebrate the role of God's saving justice in the human cycle of oppression and redemption. It also serves as an admonition to be on the right side of this story in every age and time.
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  #42  
Old Jul 6, '12, 11:44 am
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Default Re: “We didn’t pick the time, nor did we pick the fight”

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Originally Posted by seekerz View Post
Not sure how that is a response to what I posted, but as to people lowering economic expectations....I'm guessing you did not grow up in households like those you refer to? I grew up in poverty and the last thing I ever saw anyone in my neighborhood do was 'lower their economic expectations' - to meet the income they were receiving from any source, or for any other reason for that matter. So I have no idea what you mean. The poor people I knew were generally very creative at finding ways to supplement their incomes. The negative aspect of this creative phenomenon, is sometimes referred to as 'hustling'.
Maybe you were better motivated. It's a fact there are generations out there now having children out of wedlock by different fathers. I see it at the shelter where I volunteer. I don't judge other people by my personal accomplishments. I have no idea the shoes they walk in. I'm just stating sad facts.

Quote:
I understand how the free market works. What I don't understand is how I hardly ever seem to see the word 'profits' in these 'economics made simple' posts...
What is wrong with profit? Market equilibrium deals with that too. When my company isn't willing to forgo enough profit to get the contract, there is always another company willing to do it for cheaper. Our loss, their gain.
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