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  #91  
Old Jun 27, '12, 3:00 pm
bilop bilop is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by White Peony View Post
The age of reason is 7 years old. That means at 7, you should be able to tell the difference between right and wrong. An infant cannot. God has mercy on these little children because they do not know.
Limbo (as speculated) is merciful. It is a place of natural happiness.

They suffer none of the pains of Hell, they just don't see the Beatific Vision. I would imagine that if their parents/family members are in Heaven, those souls may be granted some knowledge or interaction with them

That's better than what most of mankind will actaully end up with, i.e. the full experience of Hell. If one could be guaranteed Limbo Infantum today, it would be a bold gamble to reject it. Who knows if we will perserve to the end?

God Bless
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  #92  
Old Jun 27, '12, 3:01 pm
bilop bilop is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by TEPO View Post
Not only that, but free will is an essential part of the soul. Can one have a soul and not free will, I don't think so. Therefore, if even a fetus were to confront God, it would surely recognize God as God.

With that said, I have a two month old daughter who I'm waiting to get baptized. The Church told me I have to be a parishioner for 6 months before I can baptize her... But I'll be moving again before then... If the diocese continues to deny me, after a whiIe I will baptize her myself with Holy water.

This is how important baptism is to me. In case anyone had any doubts. But God forbid she dies before then, I think she certainly has some hope of salvation.
That Church is wrong. If you are a practicing Catholic they have no right to deny you the Sacraments. Find a priest who will baptize her.

IMHO, a baby should be baptized the first Saturday after they come home from the hospital, like in the old days.

God Bless
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  #93  
Old Jun 27, '12, 4:28 pm
meltzerboy meltzerboy is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by bilop View Post
Limbo (as speculated) is merciful. It is a place of natural happiness.

They suffer none of the pains of Hell, they just don't see the Beatific Vision. I would imagine that if their parents/family members are in Heaven, those souls may be granted some knowledge or interaction with them

That's better than what most of mankind will actaully end up with, i.e. the full experience of Hell. If one could be guaranteed Limbo Infantum today, it would be a bold gamble to reject it. Who knows if we will perserve to the end?

God Bless
I might be wrong, but I don't believe the Church teaches that "most of mankind will actually end up with...the full experience of Hell."
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  #94  
Old Jun 27, '12, 4:52 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by meltzerboy View Post
I might be wrong, but I don't believe the Church teaches that "most of mankind will actually end up with...the full experience of Hell."
He may be referring to what Jesus said.

Matthew 7:13-14

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many.
14 How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few."
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  #95  
Old Jun 27, '12, 4:53 pm
Gamera Gamera is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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I know this has been a frequent topic on the Forum. My particular question is regarding why the Catechism of the Catholic Church expresses HOPE in the salvation of unbaptized infants, who lack baptism through no fault of their own, rather than CERTAINTY of their salvation. I believe at least some Protestant denominations express certainty due to infants' complete innocence except for original sin.

Is one reason due to the traditionally-held importance of baptism for salvation throughout the history of the Church? I realize there are several forms of baptism apart from the traditional Sacrament, including baptism of desire and baptism of blood, so is another reason because the infant does not fit under any of these categories, assuming the parents did not intend to baptize their child before its death? Might a third reason be that one can never say for certain who will be saved and who will not be saved by G-d's mercy? And perhaps original sin counts as another reason as well.

What are your thoughts about this, based on Church doctrine?

I'm the father of an unbaptized daughter Bella who died in miscarriage. Had she survived to birth, my wife and I would have had her baptized, as we did all our other children. In my view, this means Bella benefitted from the Catholic principle of baptism by desire.
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  #96  
Old Jun 27, '12, 5:14 pm
snarflemike snarflemike is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by Gamera View Post
I'm the father of an unbaptized daughter Bella who died in miscarriage. Had she survived to birth, my wife and I would have had her baptized, as we did all our other children. In my view, this means Bella benefitted from the Catholic principle of baptism by desire.
I think this makes perfect sense. May your tiny saint live in the presence of God forever.
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  #97  
Old Jun 28, '12, 5:57 am
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TEPO TEPO is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by bilop View Post
Limbo (as speculated) is merciful. It is a place of natural happiness.

They suffer none of the pains of Hell, they just don't see the Beatific Vision. I would imagine that if their parents/family members are in Heaven, those souls may be granted some knowledge or interaction with them

That's better than what most of mankind will actaully end up with, i.e. the full experience of Hell. If one could be guaranteed Limbo Infantum today, it would be a bold gamble to reject it. Who knows if we will perserve to the end?

God Bless
I wonder if all the babies will return with Jesus when He comes again. I've heard that everyone from hell and purgatory will be there. Maybe there's still a chance for the beatific vision after that... For the babies in "Limbo".
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  #98  
Old Jun 28, '12, 9:40 am
snarflemike snarflemike is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

Since we are made for God (as Augustine says, "You made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you."), the notion of perfect natural happiness in limbo sounds like an oxymoron. Restless for a God you can never know, for all eternity? Doesn't sound like happiness to me.
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  #99  
Old Jun 28, '12, 2:03 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by bilop View Post
That Church is wrong. If you are a practicing Catholic they have no right to deny you the Sacraments. Find a priest who will baptize her.

IMHO, a baby should be baptized the first Saturday after they come home from the hospital, like in the old days.

God Bless
The other thread that I opened for this was closed without explanation. so I will post my final comments here. As I stated in my other posts, I baptized my fourth and fifth child Some here have said that I have given "bad advice," however, I once told my present parish priest about this in an email, and he had nothing to say to me about it! And, this is a priest who asks about artificial contraception in the confessional! (I am not sure about "face to face.") Let''s look at the CCC again:
Quote:
1284 In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."
Now, what defines "necessity"? None of us are canonists, and I would certainly be open to hearing from a Roman Catholic canonist on this question, and especially, an authority in the Curia. However, if you have the full intention of raising your newborn in the One True Faith & Church and cannot find a priest to baptize your baby, for me, that would constitute "a necessity."

I was typing this up but found the other thread to be closed after trying to post it.
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  #100  
Old Jun 28, '12, 3:48 pm
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TEPO TEPO is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by Jehannette View Post
The other thread that I opened for this was closed without explanation. so I will post my final comments here. As I stated in my other posts, I baptized my fourth and fifth child Some here have said that I have given "bad advice," however, I once told my present parish priest about this in an email, and he had nothing to say to me about it! And, this is a priest who asks about artificial contraception in the confessional! (I am not sure about "face to face.") Let''s look at the CCC again:


Now, what defines "necessity"? None of us are canonists, and I would certainly be open to hearing from a Roman Catholic canonist on this question, and especially, an authority in the Curia. However, if you have the full intention of raising your newborn in the One True Faith & Church and cannot find a priest to baptize your baby, for me, that would constitute "a necessity."

I was typing this up but found the other thread to be closed after trying to post it.
Can I get a link to the thread you're talking about... Right now I'm thinking that this is really strange that you came back and said that you have Baptized your children, and i was just seriously thinking about doing it. Now you're here saying that you've not only done it, but that you had just opened a thread on the subject. It's just odd.

My wife Has actually just informed me that all the Churches in this area have this six month rule..! Now when the Church claims that there is NO difinitive answer as to what Salvation is for non-Baptized babies, and at the same time want a 6 month waiting period plus classes, then I'm simply stumped for words.

It's not right that men of the flesh by whom my child has no relation with to be able to dictate my daughters salvation for the rest of eternity, based on their PERSONAL beliefs.

If my word that I am a true Catholic who intends to raise his children in the Church is not "good enough" to welcome my child into the Holy Spirit -if I should be required to "prove" my intentions, then it would be through the goodness of my consciounce to Baptize my daughter in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Now let's talk about the proper way to conduct the ceremony, and where it should be done concerning "home Baptisms".
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  #101  
Old Jun 28, '12, 4:35 pm
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TEPO TEPO is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

I just found the other thread, and what happened was that my wife called several Churches in the area, and they all said that, yes -we must be parishoners for 6 months no exceptions. One Church said that during the 6 month period, they wanted to see how we interacted with the community, as to whether we would be active in the Church, and then we would be granted permission to take a Baptism "class". This church did mention that we could talk to the Priest to possibly work something out. This was the only Church that mentioned that we had to "prove" ourselves as being active. The others just needed the 6 month time period, no exceptions, but declined to offer any information on talking with the Priest.

But like I said, we're going to talk to a priest. I've decided to go to another area nearby that does an exceptional Latin Mass. Well go there now and try to get this done ASAP. If we run into a wall, we'll be performing a home Baptism, probably somewhere outdoors and secluded. I would make it as pious as possible.
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  #102  
Old Jun 28, '12, 4:38 pm
Jehannette Jehannette is offline
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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Originally Posted by TEPO View Post
I just found the other thread, and what happened was that my wife called several Churches in the area, and they all said that, yes -we must be parishoners for 6 months no exceptions. One Church said that during the 6 month period, they wanted to see how we interacted with the community, as to whether we would be active in the Church, and then we would be granted permission to take a Baptism "class". This church did mention that we could talk to the Priest to possibly work something out. This was the only Church that mentioned that we had to "prove" ourselves as being active. The others just needed the 6 month time period, no exceptions, but declined to offer any information on talking with the Priest.

But like I said, we're going to talk to a priest. I've decided to go to another area nearby that does an exceptional Latin Mass. Well go there now and try to get this done ASAP. If we run into a wall, we'll be performing a home Baptism, probably somewhere outdoors and secluded. I would make it as pious as possible.
All the best, and Blessings to you and yours, and especially, your newborn daughter!
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  #103  
Old Jun 28, '12, 5:45 pm
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Default Re: Salvation of Unbaptized Infants

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All the best, and Blessings to you and yours, and especially, your newborn daughter!
Thank you.
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