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  #61  
Old Jun 19, '12, 10:32 am
Faith1960 Faith1960 is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

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Originally Posted by Gaber View Post
Yes, Eternity has no component of duration or place. And Resurrection can happen before physical death, so that "the second death has no sting."
So the simple answer is that we just do not know.
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  #62  
Old Jun 19, '12, 10:50 am
NonNobisDomine NonNobisDomine is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

At the heart of this question is an outdated worldview. When the bible was written, it was commonly accepted that there were three tiers in our universe: the heavens (up), the earth (here), and the underworld (down, ie. hell). Because we no longer view the cosmos in these terms anymore, the idea of Jesus "descending into the dead" and "ascending into heaven," is hard to make sense of.

The question that has been raised in this forum thread is very important. If Jesus ascended into heaven, that is, UP, then from what we now know with space exploration, if he was traveling the speed of light he still isn't out of our galaxy yet. In reality, Jesus has gained a new life with God in the heavens. What that refers to, we simply do not know.Any attempt to say "this is heaven," is just as futile--and idolatrous--as saying "here is God," and "God is like that." As Augustine once said, "If you understand God, then what you are understanding isn't God."
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  #63  
Old Jun 19, '12, 10:59 am
Faith1960 Faith1960 is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

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Originally Posted by NonNobisDomine View Post
The question that has been raised in this forum thread is very important. If Jesus ascended into heaven, that is, UP, then from what we now know with space exploration, if he was traveling the speed of light he still isn't out of our galaxy yet. In reality, Jesus has gained a new life with God in the heavens. What that refers to, we simply do not know.Any attempt to say "this is heaven," is just as futile--and idolatrous--as saying "here is God," and "God is like that." As Augustine once said, "If you understand God, then what you are understanding isn't God."
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  #64  
Old Jun 19, '12, 12:41 pm
GEddie GEddie is online now
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NonNobisDomine View Post
At the heart of this question is an outdated worldview. When the bible was written, it was commonly accepted that there were three tiers in our universe: the heavens (up), the earth (here), and the underworld (down, ie. hell). Because we no longer view the cosmos in these terms anymore, the idea of Jesus "descending into the dead" and "ascending into heaven," is hard to make sense of.

The question that has been raised in this forum thread is very important. If Jesus ascended into heaven, that is, UP, then from what we now know with space exploration, if he was traveling the speed of light he still isn't out of our galaxy yet. In reality, Jesus has gained a new life with God in the heavens. What that refers to, we simply do not know.Any attempt to say "this is heaven," is just as futile--and idolatrous--as saying "here is God," and "God is like that." As Augustine once said, "If you understand God, then what you are understanding isn't God."
I never understood or imagined Heaven to be part of astronomical space, therefore the issue of "the galaxy" makes no difference to
my faith or understanding.

When I was a child, I was taught we simply could not see Heaven. I undetstood even then that that would not change by using a telescope.

Mathematical laws allow for higher dimensions than we can see or imagine. Why must Heaven, if "physical", be assigned to the astronomical universe?

The astronomical universe won't give you Eternity, as to the best of our knowledge, time and entropy apply as far as the telescope can see.

ICXC NIKA
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  #65  
Old Jun 19, '12, 8:16 pm
Blue Horizon Blue Horizon is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaber View Post
Yes, Eternity has no component of duration or place. And Resurrection can happen before physical death, so that "the second death has no sting."
Gaber
While I understand what you are saying (Realised Eschatology), strictly speaking the words you have written would seem internally self contradictory: physical death must precede resurrection if resurrection means rising from the dead. It is not a pretend physical death, it must be a real physical death otherwise we are probably talking of resuscitation.

The "eternity" (nth dimension solution) doesn't seem to mesh well with the problem of Jesus being truly and bodily present in the Eucharist.

The following may (or may not assist) further reflection:
"Nor does the modern theory of n-dimensions throw any light upon the subject; for the Body of Christ is not invisible or impalpable to us because it occupies the fourth dimension, but because it transcends and is wholly independent of space."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
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  #66  
Old Jun 19, '12, 8:27 pm
Faith1960 Faith1960 is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

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Originally Posted by GEddie View Post
Mathematical laws allow for higher dimensions than we can see or imagine. Why must Heaven, if "physical", be assigned to the astronomical universe?

ICXC NIKA

Can you give us some examples or point us toward some links that will explain this further?
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  #67  
Old Jun 19, '12, 8:51 pm
Faith1960 Faith1960 is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

I often wish I had a way to ask Pope Benedict difficult questions so I'd know for certain what it is we should believe. I did find some information on his view of Heaven but he doesn't sound very certain, either. His answer is rather vague but he did say this, below,
which contradicts much Christian thought found on the Internet which emphatically states that Jesus' body is in a very real, physical location.

http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/...erse-says-pope



<<<<<<<<< Celebrating an early morning Mass on the feast of the Assumption of Mary, the Pope said that when the Catholic Church affirms that Mary was taken, body and soul, into heaven, it is not referring “to some place in the universe, a star or something like that”.>>>>>>
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  #68  
Old Jun 21, '12, 8:00 pm
Faith1960 Faith1960 is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faith1960 View Post
I often wish I had a way to ask Pope Benedict difficult questions so I'd know for certain what it is we should believe. I did find some information on his view of Heaven but he doesn't sound very certain, either. His answer is rather vague but he did say this, below,
which contradicts much Christian thought found on the Internet which emphatically states that Jesus' body is in a very real, physical location.

http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/...erse-says-pope



<<<<<<<<< Celebrating an early morning Mass on the feast of the Assumption of Mary, the Pope said that when the Catholic Church affirms that Mary was taken, body and soul, into heaven, it is not referring “to some place in the universe, a star or something like that”.>>>>>>


What do you suppose his opinion is?
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  #69  
Old Jun 22, '12, 6:54 am
Gaber Gaber is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Gaber
While I understand what you are saying (Realised Eschatology), strictly speaking the words you have written would seem internally self contradictory: physical death must precede resurrection if resurrection means rising from the dead. It is not a pretend physical death, it must be a real physical death otherwise we are probably talking of resuscitation.

The "eternity" (nth dimension solution) doesn't seem to mesh well with the problem of Jesus being truly and bodily present in the Eucharist.

The following may (or may not assist) further reflection:
"Nor does the modern theory of n-dimensions throw any light upon the subject; for the Body of Christ is not invisible or impalpable to us because it occupies the fourth dimension, but because it transcends and is wholly independent of space."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
Jesus told someone once "let the dead burry the dead." Yes? Luke 9:60 I beleive.

There is a point of subtlty that has concerned me for some time regarding Teaching. It is that Mark 4:33,34 points to something that is studiously ignored, if you ask me. It is that we only have a few sentences from Jesus in the "record." And half of those are from the OT pretty much. And we also know that Jesus was in Egypt and there is arguable evidence that He might have been elsewhere as well, even to Kashmir, for instance.
There a Lahsa monestary is said by Faber-Kaiser and some others, I believe, to have records of a Sage from the West who loved children and said things that are near exact quotes from the Gospels, about two thousand years ago.

My point is that much of what Jesus says can be seen as congruent with certain Wisdom Teachings whose point is a kind of transformation that "makes the whole world new in the twinkiling of an eye." And that Teaching is ancient, and has such faces as Zen and Advaita, and some other Philosophies most contemporarily dilineated in process by such as Franklin Merrel-Wolff,* and in the Roman Catholic tradition Bernadette Roberts** .

From the perspective of someone who has reached the accomplishment proponed by those two, many Catholic Saints, and countless non Catholic Sages through the ages, the oprdinary person, in a sense, though walking around seeming to be awake, is funtionally "dead" on the much higher level of Insight that Jesus certainly operated from and it can be hypothesised that these others at least approximated.

As a correlary, this might be interesting:
Quote:
".....We define thinking as integrating data and arriving at correct answers. Look around you. Most people do that stunt just well enought to get to the corner store and back without breaking a leg. If the average man thinks at all, he does silly things like generalizing from a single datum. He uses one-valued logics. If he is exceptionally bright, he may use two-valued 'either-or' logic to arrive at his wrong answers. If he is hungry, hurt, or personally interested in the answer, he can't use any sort of logic and will discard observed fact as blithly as he will stake his life on a piece of wishful thinking. He uses the technical miracles created by superior men without wonder nor surprise, as a kitten accepts a bowl of milk. Far from aspiring to higher reasoning, he is not even aware that higher reasoning exists. He classes his own mental process as being of the same sort as the genius of an Einstein. Man is not a rational animal; he is a rationalizing animal.

"That is why there is always room at the top, why a man with a leetle more on the ball can so easily become governor, millionaire, or college president--and why homo sap is sure to be displaced by New Man, because there is so much room for improvement and evoloution never stops.

"Here and there among ordinary men is a rare individual who really thinks, can and does use logic in a single feild--he's often as stupid as the rest outside his study or his laboratory--but he can think, if he is not disturbed, sick, or frightened. This rare individual is responsible for all the progress made by the race; the others reluctantly adopt his results. Much as the ordinary man dislikes and distrusts and persecutes the process of thinking he is forced to accept the reslults occasionally, because thinking is efficient compared with his own maunderings. He may still plant his corn by the dark of the moon, but he will plant better corn developed by better men than he.

"Still rarer is the man who thinks habitually, who applies reason, rather than habit pattern, to all his activity. Unless he masks himself, his is a dangerous life; he is regarded as queer, untrustworthy, subversive of public morals; a pink monkey among the brown monkeys--a fatal mistake. Unless the pink monkey can dye homself brown before he gets caught.

"The brown monkey's instinct to kill is correct; such men are dangerous to all monkey customs.

"Rarest of all is the man who can and does reason at all times, quickly, accurately, inclusively, despite hope or fear or bodily distress, without egocentric bias or thalmic disturbance, with correct memory, with clear distinction between fact, assumption and non-fact. Such men exist, Joe, They are "New Man"--human in all respects, indistinguishable in all appearnces or under the scalpel from homo sap, yet as unlike him in action as the Sun is unlke a single candle.

~RA Heinlein, Gulf, short novel in Assignment in Eternity c 1949, '53, '81 RAH
So in my mind what you are saying has the requirement of physical death, I see as a transfomation from the death of ignorance that the vast majority of us live in. And that is not a "death" mitigated, but only somewhat allevieated by faith, which imho is but a preliminary step if righty used to what constituted a vastly different order of insight and understanding. I say this because as a student of this dynamic it appearst to me that the crucial factor is not belief, as such, but an exhaustion, if you will, of the discursive mind by, yes, prayer, meditation, or contemplation, but also even by vast depression or even trauma. the point is to be able to get past the self talk and story telling of the discursive mind in order to have a moment of vision that alowws ther Grace that is aways already theree to descend and bestow a new persp[ective that can be labeled as "born again" (not tin the revivalist sense!!!!) or resurected. That is how radically different such a state is from normal human awraeness.

I could say much more, but have time constraints here. Thanks for your attention in reading, if you go this far!

~~~~~

* The Philosophy of Consciousness Without An Object

** The Experience of No Self

Last edited by Gaber; Jun 22, '12 at 7:12 am.
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  #70  
Old Jun 22, '12, 2:36 pm
Blue Horizon Blue Horizon is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaber View Post
Jesus told someone once "let the dead burry the dead." Yes?

There is a point of subtlty that has concerned me for some time regarding Teaching. It is that Mark 4:33,34 points to something that is studiously ignored, if you ask me. It is that we only have a few sentences from Jesus in the "record."

So in my mind what you are saying has the requirement of physical death, I see as a transfomation from the death of ignorance.
Hello Gaber
Yes it is intersting to speculate where Jesus went in the hidden years. It is also said that he journeyed to Rome and back also - but there is nothing solid about any of it. Re the Lahsa Buddhist monastery (where Jesus is allegedly referred to as "Issa") - I think the equilibrium conclusion is that Nicolas Notovich, the sole purveyor of this legend in 1894 after "discovering" this information in a remote monastery in Tibet, was a fraud (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Notovitch).


Anyhow, my first pass intuition was that you may have been indirectly alluding to an Enlightenment theme in your (intentionally?) self-contradictory resurrection paradox above. Simply because this is a Catholic Forum I didn't allude to that understanding but stopped at the farthrest acceptable interpretation of what yoyu were saying (REschatology e.g. C.H. Dodd). RE is implicit in Pauline Theology but most fully developed and systemetised in John.

The thing is John (and his disciples), arguably the closest disciple to the Lord, is precisely countering too Gnostic/Buddhist an understanding of Jesus's message. While "the Kingdom" may be considered a sort of analogue to Buddhist Enlightenment it is not simply a reaching of deeper levels of understanding/consciousness (or not consciousness if you prefer). The Kingdom is more about praxis/relationship than theoria/faith/contemplation alone.

Further the Kingdom is something that is "given" by another well before it can be "taken" or worked up by any technique or learnt discipline. It is ontologically transformative of the human person - in this life through grace (much more than a transformation of consciousness) and at the end of time with the general resurrection of the dead.

Nevertheless we are going off topic as this has little directly to do with "where is Jesus now" - thanks for your thought provoking contribution.
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  #71  
Old Jun 22, '12, 4:59 pm
Gaber Gaber is offline
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Default Re: Where is Jesus now?

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Originally Posted by Blue Horizon View Post
Hello Gabe....Nevertheless we are going off topic as this has little directly to do with "where is Jesus now" - thanks for your thought provoking contribution.
You are welcome. Thanks for your perspective.
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