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  #1  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:11 pm
truthseeker32 truthseeker32 is offline
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Default Catholic view of the Fall

Tonight I was thinking about the fall, the crucifixion, and the human condition in general and encountered a lot of difficulties putting it all together. I thought I would come here and get perspectives from my Catholic brothers and sisters.

1. I have heard a lot of opinions regarding the Fall. Some take the Genesis account literally, while some think it is a simple allegory, and what is important to know is that at some point humanity fell away from God. How do you personally understand the Fall?

2. Human beings inherit our fallen condition from our first parents. Why did God not arrange things so human beings were un-fallen until they sinned? I have always struggled with this idea that everyone who has ever existed suffers the pains of mortality because of the decisions of two people eons ago. Why did God let it get so out of control?

3. Did God intend the fall, or was it his hope that Adam and Eve would live sinlessly? If they had lived sinlessly, would they have been the only humans that came into existence?
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  #2  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:19 pm
ConstantineTG ConstantineTG is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

I will approach from an Eastern Catholic/Orthodox point of view, rather than a Western Roman Catholic point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post
Tonight I was thinking about the fall, the crucifixion, and the human condition in general and encountered a lot of difficulties putting it all together. I thought I would come here and get perspectives from my Catholic brothers and sisters.

1. I have heard a lot of opinions regarding the Fall. Some take the Genesis account literally, while some think it is a simple allegory, and what is important to know is that at some point humanity fell away from God. How do you personally understand the Fall?
The Fall introduced sin and death into the world. We see death as a product of sin, things mentioned in Genesis like eating the fruit will cause Adam and Eve to die did happen. They didn't die immediately, but as a consequence they became mortal and subject to the passions of this world (sin).

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post
2. Human beings inherit our fallen condition from our first parents. Why did God not arrange things so human beings were un-fallen until they sinned? I have always struggled with this idea that everyone who has ever existed suffers the pains of mortality because of the decisions of two people eons ago. Why did God let it get so out of control?
If God arranged it that way, he would have interfered with human nature. To do so would mean he would have to destroy those who existed before, or that the succeeding generations were not really children of the previous one. It would have meant God created new perfect human beings which were not related to Adam and Eve. Good for us succeeding generations, bad for Adam and Eve who would have been left without a savior. The only way for God to save all of humanity was to rescue humanity as a whole. We have to be intact as one, related, human species. When Jesus inherited the humanity of Adam and Eve through Mary, his death and subsequent conquering of sin and death redeemed all humanity.

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Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post
3. Did God intend the fall, or was it his hope that Adam and Eve would live sinlessly? If they had lived sinlessly, would they have been the only humans that came into existence?
God did not intend it but certainly allowed for it. It is a natural consequence for beings with free will. Free will is a necessity for true love. You can only love if you have free will to choose not to love. Love itself is a product of free choice. So God could not have created being in His image and likeness, which includes the ability to love, without free will.
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  #3  
Old Jun 27, '12, 11:30 pm
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Trishie Trishie is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

But human beings were in fact 'unfallen before they sinned'.
You may like to read the following:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P19.HTM

A paragraph from Encyclical
HUMANI GENERIS
of Pope PIUS XII
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pi...eneris_en.html
37. When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains that either after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.[12]


For a fuller understanding of Catholic teaching, you can find answers scattered throughout the whole Catechism

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God/God_013.htm

http://catholiceducation.org/article...on/re0214.html

I imagine that others will ably answer your questions more fully.
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who gives Yourself wholly in Communion to billions throughout time
please pray in me for every person
as if each person is the only loved one.
JESUS please welcome each person with love, healing, and great joy!
Thank You JESUS


Mother Mary at the wedding feast of Cana (John 2:1-12)
though JESUS protested it was not yet time for miracles
you successfully interceded with Him for a family's temporal need
please now intercede with your divine Son
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JESUS please grant our prayer for this person


Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM
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  #4  
Old Jun 28, '12, 12:57 am
HisIsTheCrown HisIsTheCrown is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post
Tonight I was thinking about the fall, the crucifixion, and the human condition in general and encountered a lot of difficulties putting it all together. I thought I would come here and get perspectives from my Catholic brothers and sisters.

1. I have heard a lot of opinions regarding the Fall. Some take the Genesis account literally, while some think it is a simple allegory, and what is important to know is that at some point humanity fell away from God. How do you personally understand the Fall?

2. Human beings inherit our fallen condition from our first parents. Why did God not arrange things so human beings were un-fallen until they sinned? I have always struggled with this idea that everyone who has ever existed suffers the pains of mortality because of the decisions of two people eons ago. Why did God let it get so out of control?

3. Did God intend the fall, or was it his hope that Adam and Eve would live sinlessly? If they had lived sinlessly, would they have been the only humans that came into existence?


You have to understand the Bible on the Reserve, like a tapestry, you only know how was it made if you look on the reverse.

The Bible was not written to make us believe that existed and Adam and Eve. If humans are on Earth for 3 million of years, how could the writer know of Adam's existence?

Now, what did he intend to convey?

An answer to your questions: why do we suffer and die? why there is evil on this Earth? Is men intended to happiness?

So, he thought: if many evils we have come from our parents, then all the evils on Earth came from One couple. The rest of the story you know.

If you look on how the tapestry was made, what the writers had in mind, then you find in the whole story the finger of God, you find the tapestry amazingly beatutiful.
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  #5  
Old Jun 30, '12, 7:36 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

For correct and rather fascinating information regarding Adam's original choice, one should begin with a solid understanding of human origin and human nature. It also helps to know what God thought about Adam.

This is a tough read. Certainly not a page-turner. However, the info is complete. If one has the courage and endurance......my humble suggestion is to read paragraphs 355 - 421 plus check out the footnotes in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.
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  #6  
Old Jul 1, '12, 4:41 am
Blue Horizon Blue Horizon is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post
Tonight I was thinking about the fall, the crucifixion, and the human condition in general and encountered a lot of difficulties putting it all together. I thought I would come here and get perspectives from my Catholic brothers and sisters.

1. I have heard a lot of opinions regarding the Fall. Some take the Genesis account literally, while some think it is a simple allegory, and what is important to know is that at some point humanity fell away from God. How do you personally understand the Fall?

2. Human beings inherit our fallen condition from our first parents. Why did God not arrange things so human beings were un-fallen until they sinned? I have always struggled with this idea that everyone who has ever existed suffers the pains of mortality because of the decisions of two people eons ago. Why did God let it get so out of control?

3. Did God intend the fall, or was it his hope that Adam and Eve would live sinlessly? If they had lived sinlessly, would they have been the only humans that came into existence?
Truthseeker
There is quite a lot of resource already here over the years (available through Search) e.g.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...light=the+fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
http://forums.catholic.com/showthrea...highlight=fall
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  #7  
Old Jul 1, '12, 11:53 am
littlepilgrim littlepilgrim is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

Quote:
Originally Posted by truthseeker32 View Post

2. Human beings inherit our fallen condition from our first parents. Why did God not arrange things so human beings were un-fallen until they sinned? I have always struggled with this idea that everyone who has ever existed suffers the pains of mortality because of the decisions of two people eons ago. Why did God let it get so out of control?
The best description of the fall I ever read was a short story in a catechism through stories book. It tells a story of how two men were good friends one was rich (Jo) and had a good job the other was poor and had a problem with drinking (Bob just to keep them straight I'm retelling this and haven't read it for a while). Jo wanted to help Bob out and gave him a car with the promise that if he stopped drinking he would give the title of the car to Bobs two sons. Jo one day broke his promise to stop drinking and totaled the car while drunk. By his sin he forfeited his sons right to the title for the car. God gave Adam and Eve a great gift supernatural life with a condition that they obey. By disobeying they lost that gift for themselves and their children but God did more and promised His Son and their son would repair their disobedience.

3. Did God intend the fall, or was it his hope that Adam and Eve would live sinlessly? If they had lived sinlessly, would they have been the only humans that came into existence?[/quote]

God did not intend it but gave them free will, which implies the freedom to do what they want instead of what He wants. If they had lived sinlessly there would have been other humans still Gods command “be fruitful and multiply” was still there. How God would have dealt with the sin of one child but not others will always be speculation now. I sure wouldn’t have wanted to be the one sibling who got kicked out of the garden for disobedience.
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  #8  
Old Jul 1, '12, 11:58 am
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

The key to Catholic understanding of the Fall is that all humanity is in Adam "as one body of one man". Source: St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4.1. Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, paragraphs 402-406.

Last edited by grannymh; Jul 1, '12 at 12:11 pm.
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  #9  
Old Jul 1, '12, 12:07 pm
grannymh grannymh is offline
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Default Re: Catholic view of the Fall

Quote:
Originally Posted by littlepilgrim View Post
How God would have dealt with the sin of one child but not others will always be speculation now. I sure wouldn’t have wanted to be the one sibling who got kicked out of the garden for disobedience.
Original Sin was not a group or a family activity. Original Sin occurred when the individual Adam preferred himself to God and by that very act he severed the relationship between God the Creator and humanity as descending from Adam.
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