Is Free Will Possible in the Catholic Faith or Any Other Religion in General - Page 2

WillP · #16 Jun 14, '12, 8:47 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonyrey

Originally Posted by willpFeelings don't bestow the power to choose.

No but they make us feel astho we have the power to choose. Thus, iIt seems like we have the power to choose.

"as tho" implies that the overwhelming majority and the legal systems of the world are all deluded.
Legal systems are not so much deluded as they are protective of a society and the values of a society. Legal systems exist to assign responsibility. These systems punish misbehavor and attempt to fix society's problems (with varying degrees of success, of course). Regardless, it seems and will always seem as tho we are free agents ,but, the believable evidence is that we are not. Sam Harris wrote a book on free will which probably explains the research better than I could. I haven't read it yet, but, I am familiar with his work and I have read other authors on the subject. My contact with this area has been eposodic and not nearly as intently studied as I would like, however, with that disclaimer, I find the proposition of no free will and the evidence in support to be compelling.

It is difficult to explain in a post, but, in essence, I think it works like this: I can choose to stop this posting and get back to work or I can continue trying to convince you of my position on free will. That seems certainly like a free choice that I have. However, in the process of making my selection, I will form an intention to do one or the other. It is that intention over which I have no control.

How and why did this universal delusion originate?

Who knows? As humans experienced their environment, it always seemed like it was perfectly natural to either throw a spear at the mammoth or call it a day and go back to the cave. We are not aware of the intentionality of our choices anymore than we are aware of why our origins function, the blood flows in our veins or dozens of other physical functions and operations.

BTW Use the quote facility for the other person's statements.

OK. Thanks for the tip.

**tonyrey** · #17 Jun 16, '12, 4:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillP

OK. Thanks for the tip.

Any response to my points?

WillP · #18 Jun 16, '12, 4:32 pm

Q. "as tho" implies that the overwhelming majority and the legal systems of the world are all deluded.

A. Legal systems are not so much deluded as they are protective of a society and the values of a society. Legal systems exist to assign responsibility. These systems punish misbehavor and attempt to fix society's problems (with varying degrees of success, of course). Regardless, it seems and will always seem as tho we are free agents ,but, the believable evidence is that we are not. Sam Harris wrote a book on free will which probably explains the research better than I could. I haven't read it yet, but, I am familiar with his work and I have read other authors on the subject. My contact with this area has been eposodic and not nearly as intently studied as I would like, however, with that disclaimer, I find the proposition of no free will and the evidence in support to be compelling.

It is difficult to explain in a post, but, in essence, I think it works like this: I can choose to stop this posting and get back to work or I can continue trying to convince you of my position on free will. That seems certainly like a free choice that I have. However, in the process of making my selection, I will form an intention to do one or the other. It is that intention over which I have no control.

Q. How and why did this universal delusion originate?

A. Who knows? As humans experienced their environment, it always seemed like it was perfectly natural to either throw a spear at the mammoth or call it a day and go back to the cave. We are not aware of the intentionality of our choices anymore than we are aware of why our origins function, the blood flows in our veins or dozens of other physical functions and operations.

**tonyrey** · #19 Jun 16, '12, 5:28 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillP

Q. "as tho" implies that the overwhelming majority and the legal systems of the world are all deluded.

A. Legal systems are not so much deluded as they are protective of a society and the values of a society. Legal systems exist to assign responsibility. These systems punish misbehavor and attempt to fix society's problems (with varying degrees of success, of course). Regardless, it seems and will always seem as tho we are free agents ,but, the believable evidence is that we are not. Sam Harris wrote a book on free will which probably explains the research better than I could. I haven't read it yet, but, I am familiar with his work and I have read other authors on the subject. My contact with this area has been eposodic and not nearly as intently studied as I would like, however, with that disclaimer, I find the proposition of no free will and the evidence in support to be compelling.

It is difficult to explain in a post, but, in essence, I think it works like this: I can choose to stop this posting and get back to work or I can continue trying to convince you of my position on free will. That seems certainly like a free choice that I have. However, in the process of making my selection, I will form an intention to do one or the other. It is that intention over which I have no control.

In that case you have no control over your conclusions and they may well stem from what you had for breakfast or on your state of health!

Quote:

Q. How and why did this universal delusion originate?

A. Who knows? As humans experienced their environment, it always seemed like it was perfectly natural to either throw a spear at the mammoth or call it a day and go back to the cave. We are not aware of the intentionality of our choices anymore than we are aware of why our origins function, the blood flows in our veins or dozens of other physical functions and operations.

Awareness of intentionality is not necessary for intentions to occur any more than it is for physical functions. Many people have never thought about it.

Linusthe2nd · #20 Jul 9, '12, 5:54 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by petras52

The reservation I have about free will in regards to our relationship with God is that it seems a little like a "shotgun wedding"..yes we don't have to accept God or marry someone we don't want, but the consequences of not doing so are unpleasant...I wonder how much the fear of God and fear of hell influence people..

We should have a fear of everlasting punishment and of Him who will judge us. There is another fear also and this we should strive for and pray for. We should fear offending God because we love Him so much we don't want to disappoint Him. Like we used to love our Mothers so much we didn't want to do anything which would hurt her. Both fears are good, the second is much better.