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  #1  
Old Jun 10, '12, 2:12 pm
ilovemary90 ilovemary90 is offline
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Default "Believe in me"

I was confirmed on Easter Vigil this year. I grew up in a protestant church, and so I feel my interpretation of many scriptures is tainted. For instance, my *ah ha* moment was when I found out catholics believe that Christ was in the Eucharist. I could never figure out what Jesus was talking about in John 6. I had no idea you could just assume that Jesus said what he meant, and he meant what he said like that. As soon as I heard you could interpret scripture that way, I said, sign me up! So cool.

Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.


I also want help in REALLY understanding the role of the Eucharist. Is recieving communion regularly essentially our salvation? I would just like a deeper and more clear understanding of the purpose of the Eucharist.
When Jesus says "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." what kind of life is he meaning? Eternal life?
How does the body and blood help get us to heaven?

Eucharist is essentially how we apply the atonement to ourselves, right?

Sorry if this seems to elementary, but I feel like I've missed out on the deep understanding and appreciation of the Eucharist that comes when you've had your whole childhood to ponder it.
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  #2  
Old Jun 10, '12, 3:25 pm
sdegutis sdegutis is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

There's a book I'm reading that explains this really extremely clearly and thoroughly. It's called "My Way of Life" and it's usually a small book with a green cover. I have to say, this book is amazing in explaining everything we need to know about salvation, from Baptism to the nature of grace to the Eucharist to mortal sin to inspirations and temptations. And it's written in a way that you can either read it from beginning to end or literally open to any page and just jump right in. In fact pretty much any time I've picked up the book, I've opened to a random page, read the first few words of a paragraph, and was so hooked I couldn't pull myself away from it for at least a few pages!

Another reason I so highly recommend this book is because you'll get a lot of debates on these forums from Protestants, Mormons, sedavacantists, basically heretics of all kinds. Threads about any important topic quickly deteriorate into something useless, which is of course how the devil likes to work in the world.

But to answer your question very very briefly:

The way we are saved is through the Sacraments, especially Baptism, which remits original sin (which we're all born with) and all actual sins (which we usually start committing at the age of reason), and the Eucharist, which forgives venial sins, gives us the grace to resist mortal sins, and enables us to love God more freely than before and grow in all sorts of virtues. The virtues are opposite to vices, which means if you grow in virtues, you will be less likely to sin in the future, and the less likely you are to sin, the more likely you are to die in a state of grace. And you need faith for any of this to work, but especially Baptism, because without faith you can't truly submit yourself to God's invisible plan for your soul, and you can't renounce the world, the devil and the flesh for something invisible that you can't see and don't believe in. But this is probably very confusing, which is why I recommend reading it in that book, which explains it very simply and powerfully, and thoroughly and clearly.
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  #3  
Old Jun 10, '12, 6:16 pm
thistle thistle is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemary90 View Post
I was confirmed on Easter Vigil this year. I grew up in a protestant church, and so I feel my interpretation of many scriptures is tainted. For instance, my *ah ha* moment was when I found out catholics believe that Christ was in the Eucharist. I could never figure out what Jesus was talking about in John 6. I had no idea you could just assume that Jesus said what he meant, and he meant what he said like that. As soon as I heard you could interpret scripture that way, I said, sign me up! So cool.

Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.


I also want help in REALLY understanding the role of the Eucharist. Is recieving communion regularly essentially our salvation? I would just like a deeper and more clear understanding of the purpose of the Eucharist.
When Jesus says "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." what kind of life is he meaning? Eternal life?
How does the body and blood help get us to heaven?

Eucharist is essentially how we apply the atonement to ourselves, right?

Sorry if this seems to elementary, but I feel like I've missed out on the deep understanding and appreciation of the Eucharist that comes when you've had your whole childhood to ponder it.
I recommend Theology For Beginners by Frank Sheed. Paperback book written in an easy to understand way.
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  #4  
Old Jun 10, '12, 7:01 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemary90 View Post
I was confirmed on Easter Vigil this year. I grew up in a protestant church...
Welcome to the fulness of the Faith!
Quote:
Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.
When some one asks about what it means to "believe" I always like to point them back to the favorite verse of Protestants, John 3:16:
Quote:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
This leads to the question of what it means in this verse "to believe". I think we can find the answer to that later in the same chapter of John where it says in verse 36:
Quote:
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
From this is is clear that belief in Christ is synonymous with obedience to Christ. That is why we call Jesus both Lord and Saviour--Saviour because he has redeemed us by his death on the Cross for our sins, and Lord because we are saved through faith and obedience to him. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about "belief":
Quote:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. (John 16:16; Jn 3:36; 6:40 et al). "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" (Dei Filius 3:ds 3012; cf. Mt 10:22; 24:13 and Heb 11:6; Council of Trent: DS 1532.)
Basically, the Church’s teaching is this: We are saved by grace alone, through faith. The Catholic understanding of faith includes both placing our trust in Christ AND obeying him—what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1 and 16). The Church teaches that everything having to do with our salvation is God’s grace. Even our original conversion is God’s initiative and an entirely unmerited gift of his grace—we cannot even take the first step without him. It is indeed 100% God’s work, but, respecting our free will, he allows us to cooperate in our own salvation through faith and charity.

Where works come in is as a response to God’s grace (obedience) and as a means to grow in sanctification. God sends us the grace (and the opportunity) to perform a good work. By being responsive to God’s grace, we please him because of our obedience, and grow in holiness. The holier we become, the less likely we are to fall into sin. Failure to respond to God’s grace is a failure to grow in holiness. If we continually refuse to respond to God’s graces, we run the risk of falling into serious sin. And, as you know, the Church teaches that if one dies in serious, unrepented sin, he cannot be admitted to heaven. It is important to remember that good works that are not done in faith and by God’s grace—on human power— do not avail anything. You do not get into heaven just by “being good.”

This is basically the place that works has in salvation: obedience and sanctification. The Church does not teach that salvation is attained by being “good enough” to get into heaven; it isn’t a “scale” that if you do more good works than bad you get in; we cannot put God in our debt by what we do. Here’s just one excerpt from the Catechism:
Quote:
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
For a more in depth treatment of this, I’d highly recommend seeing the sections in the Catechism that addresses this subject (Sections 142—165; 1987—2029). Here is an article from Catholic Answers that may also be helpful:

Grace: What It Is and What It Does
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
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  #5  
Old Jun 10, '12, 8:00 pm
ilovemary90 ilovemary90 is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdegutis View Post
There's a book I'm reading that explains this really extremely clearly and thoroughly. It's called "My Way of Life" and it's usually a small book with a green cover. I have to say, this book is amazing in explaining everything we need to know about salvation, from Baptism to the nature of grace to the Eucharist to mortal sin to inspirations and temptations. And it's written in a way that you can either read it from beginning to end or literally open to any page and just jump right in. In fact pretty much any time I've picked up the book, I've opened to a random page, read the first few words of a paragraph, and was so hooked I couldn't pull myself away from it for at least a few pages!

Another reason I so highly recommend this book is because you'll get a lot of debates on these forums from Protestants, Mormons, sedavacantists, basically heretics of all kinds. Threads about any important topic quickly deteriorate into something useless, which is of course how the devil likes to work in the world.

But to answer your question very very briefly:

The way we are saved is through the Sacraments, especially Baptism, which remits original sin (which we're all born with) and all actual sins (which we usually start committing at the age of reason), and the Eucharist, which forgives venial sins, gives us the grace to resist mortal sins, and enables us to love God more freely than before and grow in all sorts of virtues. The virtues are opposite to vices, which means if you grow in virtues, you will be less likely to sin in the future, and the less likely you are to sin, the more likely you are to die in a state of grace. And you need faith for any of this to work, but especially Baptism, because without faith you can't truly submit yourself to God's invisible plan for your soul, and you can't renounce the world, the devil and the flesh for something invisible that you can't see and don't believe in. But this is probably very confusing, which is why I recommend reading it in that book, which explains it very simply and powerfully, and thoroughly and clearly.
Great response, thank you.
That book sounds good!
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  #6  
Old Jun 20, '12, 1:53 pm
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Colm Cille Colm Cille is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Basically, the Church’s teaching is this: We are saved by grace alone, through faith. The Catholic understanding of faith includes both placing our trust in Christ AND obeying him—what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1 and 16). The Church teaches that everything having to do with our salvation is God’s grace.
a Chara,

could you clarify for me the position of the Church regarding those who live through an alternate belief system, or with no faith at all? I've been led to believe that Vatican II affirmed that there is "light" in each of the major world religious and presumably a route to salvation thereby, but I could use some clarification on this point.

Míle Buíochas,

Colm Cille.
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  #7  
Old Jun 20, '12, 5:52 pm
fred conty fred conty is online now
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemary90 View Post
I was confirmed on Easter Vigil this year. I grew up in a protestant church, and so I feel my interpretation of many scriptures is tainted. For instance, my *ah ha* moment was when I found out catholics believe that Christ was in the Eucharist. I could never figure out what Jesus was talking about in John 6. I had no idea you could just assume that Jesus said what he meant, and he meant what he said like that. As soon as I heard you could interpret scripture that way, I said, sign me up! So cool.

Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.


I also want help in REALLY understanding the role of the Eucharist. Is recieving communion regularly essentially our salvation? I would just like a deeper and more clear understanding of the purpose of the Eucharist.
When Jesus says "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." what kind of life is he meaning? Eternal life?
How does the body and blood help get us to heaven?

Eucharist is essentially how we apply the atonement to ourselves, right?

Sorry if this seems to elementary, but I feel like I've missed out on the deep understanding and appreciation of the Eucharist that comes when you've had your whole childhood to ponder it.
Why is the Eucharist so important?

If you notice, Jesus started his career with baptism to tell us how important it was. For he told Nichodemous that unless a man is born again he cannot enter heaven. That indeed is important as it gets.

Then toward the end of his career, he said how important the Eucharist was. For he told the crowd following him that unless a man eat his flesh and drink his blood, he could not have life in him.

Baptism gives new life, and the Eucharist sustains that new life. As we know, without sustenance, we cannot live. It is real food as Jesus says. It feeds us as supernatural people, as a son/daughter of God. The food changes us into him spiritually and helps us to grow in divine life. Withdrawing ourselves from this divine food deprives our soul that keeps it alive. That is why it is so important.

What is it that we notice first of all about an indifferent catholic? A lack of appreciation for this divine food. And unfortunately the church had to come out with a law to help protect this from happening by the "easter duty", that is of receiving Jesus in communion at least once during the year.

Of course there is one caveat. The effect of this divine sustenance will depend to some degree on the preparedness of disposition in the catholic. Only if we wake our faith up and realize who we are receiving and to arouse our love of him before and during reception, then the more effect it will have. Indifference and boredom will have just the opposite effect.

There has never been a more wonderful thing than the previlege of receiving our dear Lord.
Thank him often.

Just a thought.
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  #8  
Old Jun 23, '12, 10:15 pm
Fidelis Fidelis is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm Cille View Post
a Chara,

could you clarify for me the position of the Church regarding those who live through an alternate belief system, or with no faith at all? I've been led to believe that Vatican II affirmed that there is "light" in each of the major world religious and presumably a route to salvation thereby, but I could use some clarification on this point.

Míle Buíochas,

Colm Cille.
Here is a reply to that question from Catholic Answers in one of their "Quick Questions":

Does "no salvation outside the Church" include non-Catholic Christians?

Note that the Church's teaching is that non-Catholics may be saved, not necessarily that they will be saved. That is entirely up to God, and is based on the response of these individuals to whatever grace He may give them. These individuals are not saved because of their "alternate belief system", but in spite of those aspects which do not contain authentic truths.
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  #9  
Old Jun 24, '12, 7:13 am
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Colm Cille Colm Cille is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidelis View Post
Here is a reply to that question from Catholic Answers in one of their "Quick Questions":

Does "no salvation outside the Church" include non-Catholic Christians?

Note that the Church's teaching is that non-Catholics may be saved, not necessarily that they will be saved. That is entirely up to God, and is based on the response of these individuals to whatever grace He may give them. These individuals are not saved because of their "alternate belief system", but in spite of those aspects which do not contain authentic truths.
That's great, thanks for taking the time to reply. This is exactly the clarification I was looking for.
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  #10  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:21 am
fhansen fhansen is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

The Eucharist helps us get to heaven because it seeks to accomplish physically what must happen spiritually-the communion of God with man. As God is united with man in Jesus so man must unite with God in us. We’re given the gift of living or acting out physically what must happen internally, the partaking of the divine nature. This still depends on our disposition, of course; the quality of our relationship with God will always be related to our disposition and wills-how worthily we receive Him. Anyway, this dramatic means of living out our relationship with God “fleshes” everything out. When I sin seriously internal communion with God is broken again (remember that sin-opposition to Gods’ will-is what caused the fall to begin with); I’ve acted outside of faith in and love for Him and now, if I’m honest, I likewise refrain physically from a pretense of that communion until I repent and participate in Reconciliation/Confession-and can experience that the sin is forgiven and union is restored. With this dynamic, made concrete, so to speak, by the sacraments, Christian theology is defined and we have a definitive means to live out what should be happening inside.

In considering ‘faith’, we must realize that the entire goal of Christianity is to reunite man with God after a wound-the separation that took place at the fall. We’re all born without conscious knowledge of, let alone faith in God. Jesus came to show us the Father-to demonstrate God in action; “…when you’ve seen Me you’ve seen the Father.” So when we believe in Jesus, we’re actually believing in/accepting God; reconciliation is taking place and God’s plan of restoration/salvation for us can begin. Lack of faith is an injustice-an unnatural disharmony in the universe because man was made to know and love God; we can have no full integrity without this relationship; we can have no complete happiness or satisfaction without this relationship, and no eternal life without the giver and sustainer of life. And lack of faith is essentially due to pride, which inherently opposes our acceptance of God as God. Man is only complete when he loves God with his whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself and this can’t begin to happen until he consciously recognizes His existence, His trustworthiness, and our need for Him. And this is the purpose of the Atonement-the Incarnation, life, words, deeds, passion, death, and resurrection of Christ. This is the full revelation of God-that which gives us something to believe in.
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  #11  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:29 am
mark a mark a is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemary90 View Post
Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.
Believing helps us do.

Quote:
How does the body and blood help get us to heaven?
I suggest Brandt Pitrie's CD on the Jewish roots of the eucharist. I found it in the Lighthouse Media rack in my Church's narthex for 3$.

Welcome home!!
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  #12  
Old Jun 24, '12, 8:57 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fidelis View Post
Welcome to the fulness of the Faith!
When some one asks about what it means to "believe" I always like to point them back to the favorite verse of Protestants, John 3:16:
This leads to the question of what it means in this verse "to believe". I think we can find the answer to that later in the same chapter of John where it says in verse 36:
From this is is clear that belief in Christ is synonymous with obedience to Christ. That is why we call Jesus both Lord and Saviour--Saviour because he has redeemed us by his death on the Cross for our sins, and Lord because we are saved through faith and obedience to him. Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about "belief":

Basically, the Church’s teaching is this: We are saved by grace alone, through faith. The Catholic understanding of faith includes both placing our trust in Christ AND obeying him—what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1 and 16). The Church teaches that everything having to do with our salvation is God’s grace. Even our original conversion is God’s initiative and an entirely unmerited gift of his grace—we cannot even take the first step without him. It is indeed 100% God’s work, but, respecting our free will, he allows us to cooperate in our own salvation through faith and charity.

Where works come in is as a response to God’s grace (obedience) and as a means to grow in sanctification. God sends us the grace (and the opportunity) to perform a good work. By being responsive to God’s grace, we please him because of our obedience, and grow in holiness. The holier we become, the less likely we are to fall into sin. Failure to respond to God’s grace is a failure to grow in holiness. If we continually refuse to respond to God’s graces, we run the risk of falling into serious sin. And, as you know, the Church teaches that if one dies in serious, unrepented sin, he cannot be admitted to heaven. It is important to remember that good works that are not done in faith and by God’s grace—on human power— do not avail anything. You do not get into heaven just by “being good.”

This is basically the place that works has in salvation: obedience and sanctification. The Church does not teach that salvation is attained by being “good enough” to get into heaven; it isn’t a “scale” that if you do more good works than bad you get in; we cannot put God in our debt by what we do. Here’s just one excerpt from the Catechism:

For a more in depth treatment of this, I’d highly recommend seeing the sections in the Catechism that addresses this subject (Sections 142—165; 1987—2029). Here is an article from Catholic Answers that may also be helpful:

Grace: What It Is and What It Does
http://www.catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp
Excellent post!

Maran atha!

Angel
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  #13  
Old Jun 24, '12, 9:40 pm
jcrichton jcrichton is offline
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Default Re: "Believe in me"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovemary90 View Post
I was confirmed on Easter Vigil this year. I grew up in a protestant church, and so I feel my interpretation of many scriptures is tainted. For instance, my *ah ha* moment was when I found out catholics believe that Christ was in the Eucharist. I could never figure out what Jesus was talking about in John 6. I had no idea you could just assume that Jesus said what he meant, and he meant what he said like that. As soon as I heard you could interpret scripture that way, I said, sign me up! So cool.

Anyways, I want help understanding why Jesus talks about "believing" in order to be saved so much.


I also want help in REALLY understanding the role of the Eucharist. Is recieving communion regularly essentially our salvation? I would just like a deeper and more clear understanding of the purpose of the Eucharist.
When Jesus says "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." what kind of life is he meaning? Eternal life?
How does the body and blood help get us to heaven?

Eucharist is essentially how we apply the atonement to ourselves, right?

Sorry if this seems to elementary, but I feel like I've missed out on the deep understanding and appreciation of the Eucharist that comes when you've had your whole childhood to ponder it.
Christ said to the Disciples: "...you Believe in God, Believe also in Me." (St. John 14:1) ...and He said: "...if you Love Me Keep my Commandments." (St. John 14:15) ...and Jesus said: "...I AM the Bread of Life... My Fless is Real Food and My Blood is Real Drink... whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood Lives in Me and I in him (that person)." (St. John 6:47-69)

...as Jesus asked of Martha, "do you Believe...?" (St. John 11:26)

Maran atha!

Angel
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