Zoroastrianism

[Jerry Parker]

Robert Burke wrote: If numbers are a reflection of the truth of God, then what does that say about Islam and its 1.2 billion adherents?
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Numbers and other triumphalistic arguments are no measure of the truth of religion. Of course, the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Christian Churches superceded Zoroastrianism, for the most part, then Islam trounced it too, a few centuries later. However, what does that kind of thinking say about how Islam reduced Christianity in the Middle East and Central Asia to remnant status? And, in any event, as I mentioned in my own earlier posting, Zoroastrianism lives on more vigourously than many people in the West suppose.

One problem that plagues Zoroastrians is the precariousness of how their sacred literature has been transmitted, through so much destruction and attempts to reconstitute the sacred writings. It is difficult to know just what Zoroaster and the early followers really taught and believed.

We Catholics have to have such gratitude at how our faith has persisted and our Scriptures been vouchsafed God`s protective and divine preservation of them.

[IanGE]

There are still a flourishing minority of Parsees in India, where they are renowned as a very cultured (and rich) race. I believe they were the first ancient religion to tackle good and evil with opposing gods representing each. I believe that an adherent could keep a foot in both camps. Worship Ahura Mazda the good god in the hope that they will be protected from the bad god (can't remember). They could also placate the bad god with offerings in the hope that he will keep off hassling one's family.
I grew up in India during the British Raj, had many Parsee friends. They believe fire, water and earth to be sacred and therefore had problems of how to dispose of their dead. So they built "Towers of Silence" which are still to be seen. They are like walled castle keeps, open to the sky with a grating covering the inside at the middle. Corpses are laid on the grating and vultures dispose of them; any bones that are left fall through the grating where wild animals finish them off through small gateways at ground level. Gruesome, but that way they do not defile fire, water or earth.
We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow's pee on their food. On a recent visit to India an old Parsee friend invited us to dinner. I said, "we accept your kind offer, but please don't sprinkle that stuff on the pilau." We two septuagenarians engaged in a playful scuffle, he retaliating with good humour. BTW he told me, "I know as much about Catholicism as you do." "How's that?" "Whenever you had catechism lessons, we non-Catholics were given the time off. But we couldn't go anywhere, we had to sit at the back of the classroom and read, or whatever. But of course, we little boys couldn't help but listen in. Dead crafty, your Catholic priests!"

[Jerry Parker]

Ian wrote: We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow's pee on their food.
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Yes, that kind of Mithraic obsession with bulls that Zoroastrians have is one of their colourful traits. I once in college did some research on funerary practices of the world and gave a speech about it. When I mentioned the towers of silence faces in the audience`s faces went white, but they recovered enough to choke when I mentioned that, at their weddings, the bride and the groom quaff down a steaming beaker of bull`s urine as a customary part of the festivities.

More charming is the Zoroastrian love of dogs. These folk have an high regard for the hounds. In Zoroastrianism, anyone who mistreats dogs is looked down as being a particularly scurrilous example of human low-life. Zoroastrians love and esteem their dogs!

A particularly famous Parsee whose name many would recognise is Zubin Mehta, the very famous opera and concert music conductor.

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parker

Ian wrote: We Christian boys used to rag our Parsee friends saying they sprinkled cow's pee on their food.
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Yes, that kind of Mithraic obsession with bulls that Zoroastrians have is one of their colourful traits. I once in college did some research on funerary practices of the world and gave a speech about it. When I mentioned the towers of silence faces in the audience`s faces went white, but they recovered enough to choke when I mentioned that, at their weddings, the bride and the groom quaff down a steaming beaker of bull`s urine as a customary part of the festivities.

Well, the Greco-Roman Mithras is derived from the Iranian deity (yazata) Mithra, related to the Vedic (Indo-Aryan) god Mitrá and ultimately deriving from the Indo-Iranian divinity *Mitras. (I could go on about the Vedic religion but I'd stop here. )

[Jerry Parker]

Patrick wrote: Well, the Greco-Roman Mithras is derived from the Iranian deity (yazata) Mithra, related to the Vedic (Indo-Aryan) god Mitrá and ultimately deriving from the Indo-Iranian divinity *Mitras. (I could go on about the Vedic religion but I'd stop here. )
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I did not mean to equate, reductively, Zoroastrianism with the Mithraic cults of antiquity. I used the adjective "Mithraic" as one that, culturally, is historically vivid enough to summon up a reader`s reaction, and as comparison rather than equation.

As for the Vedic lore, it makes for powerfully evocative literature , but for quite deficient religion.
!

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parker

I did not mean to equate, reductively, Zoroastrianism with the Mithraic cults of antiquity. I used the adjective "Mithraic" as one that, culturally, is historically vivid enough to summon up a reader`s reaction, and as comparison rather than equation.

As for the Vedic lore, it makes for powerfully evocative literature , but for quite deficient religion.
!

Actually, that's my point: the Roman Mithras is ultimately derived from the Iranian Mithra.

And Vedic Brahmanism: part of my personal interests actually revolve around mythologies and philosophies from different cultures. Since Greco-Roman or Germanic mythology is pretty much cliche I thought I'd take a different route and look at Vedism, since it is ultimately of the same stock (Indo-European) anyway. I've been looking at Asian, Near Eastern or European stuff for quite some time now but I've yet to look at Pacific or African or American.

[Jerry Parker]

Patrick wrote: Actually, that's my point: the Roman Mithras is ultimately derived from the Iranian Mithra.

And Vedic Brahmanism: part of my personal interests actually revolve around mythologies and philosophies from different cultures. Since Greco-Roman or Germanic mythology is pretty much cliche I thought I'd take a different route and look at Vedism, since it is ultimately of the same stock (Indo-European) anyway. I've been looking at Asian, Near Eastern or European stuff for quite some time now but I've yet to look at Pacific or African or American.
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Granted, from the standpoint of origins, but Zoroastrianism has been more unstable and had greater difficulties in assuring the perpetuation of its scriptures, compared to some other world religions, to be able to equate totally with Mitraism. Zoroastrianism today is not what it was in the dim past, despite the obvious residual continuities, due to these changes, disasters, and developments.

[patrick457]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parker

Patrick wrote: Actually, that's my point: the Roman Mithras is ultimately derived from the Iranian Mithra.

And Vedic Brahmanism: part of my personal interests actually revolve around mythologies and philosophies from different cultures. Since Greco-Roman or Germanic mythology is pretty much cliche I thought I'd take a different route and look at Vedism, since it is ultimately of the same stock (Indo-European) anyway. I've been looking at Asian, Near Eastern or European stuff for quite some time now but I've yet to look at Pacific or African or American.
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Granted, from the standpoint of origins, but Zoroastrianism has been more unstable and had greater difficulties in assuring the perpetuation of its scriptures, compared to some other world religions, to be able to equate totally with Mitraism. Zoroastrianism today is not what it was in the dim past, despite the obvious residual continuities, due to these changes, disasters, and developments.

This is really where I see a contrast with how the Vedas were transmitted: the Indo-Aryans devised various elaborate systems of memorization to ensure that the hymns would be preserved with a high degree of fidelity. Even today the Vedas are still mainly taught by word of mouth, with the written word being only secondary.

[Jerry Parker]

Patrick wrote: This is really where I see a contrast with how the Vedas were transmitted: the Indo-Aryans devised various elaborate systems of memorization to ensure that the hymns would be preserved with a high degree of fidelity. Even today the Vedas are still mainly taught by word of mouth, with the written word being only secondary.
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Spot on, dude! Fortunately there was sufficient stability, despite the usual turbulences of history, in the culture of India to assure this oral transmission, something which comes naturally to humans if they exercise it. Alas, the upsets in Central Asia just were too much to ensure the fulness of Zoroastrianism`s mythical and scriptural transmission, though the religion itself still has been able to maintain a rather ruggèd minority presence among the Parsees of India, the Persians, Kurds, and others.