Catholic FAQ


Latest Threads
newest posts



Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics
 

Welcome to Catholic Answers Forums, the largest Catholic Community on the Web.

Here you can join over 400,000 members from around the world discussing all things Catholic. Membership is open to all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, who seek the Truth with Charity.

To gain full access, you must register for a FREE account. Registered members are able to:
  • Submit questions about the faith to experts from Catholic Answers
  • Participate in all forum discussions
  • Communicate privately with Catholics from around the world
  • Plus join a prayer group, read with the Book Club, and much more.
Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free. So join our community today!

Have a question about registration or your account log-in? Just contact our Support Hotline.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search Thread Display
  #16  
Old Jun 25, '12, 3:05 pm
Petergee Petergee is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Posts: 3,438
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter24;9448249 [/B
As for persicution of witches, burning at the stake and jailing has been out of style for 300+ years (although many still face social and economic persecution in a more passive manner). Most modern Wiccans will rant about the horrors inflicted apon millions of whiches durring the middle ages. I personally don't subscribe to that theorie. Yes whiches were burned and on occasion church officials took part, but the same happened to gays, Jews, Muslims, and other pagans, and[b] the numbers were more likely about 100,000 [/B]across the entire middle ages. The persicution of pagans after the Christianization of the roman empire was much worse than the "Burning Times".
By posting the utter nonsesne statements I have bolded here, you lose any credit for intelligence which you have gained by your (very mild) rejection of the utterly fantastic claim that millions of witches were burned.

There is no historical or other evidence to support your claims; in fact the evidence positively disproves them.

Burning of witches was a hangover from pagan times which experienced a revival in Western and Northern Europe in the 16th-18th centuries as a result of the anarchy brought on by the protestant revolt.

It was almost unknown in Christendom during the Middle Ages (whiuch finished about 1450 AD).

Neither the Church nor any civil authority in any Catholic-majority country ever burned (or executed in any other manner) gays, Jews, Muslims or pagans just for being gays, Jews, Muslims or pagans.

And Jews are definitely not pagans. Moslems are generally also not considered to be pagans.

The idea that there is a special class of people called "gays" was invented only 100 years ago inj Germany, and did not become popular anywhere until about 40 years ago.
  #17  
Old Jun 25, '12, 4:31 pm
Hunter24 Hunter24 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: June 21, 2012
Posts: 407
Religion: Wiccan (Germanic)
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
There is no historical or other evidence to support your claims; in fact the evidence positively disproves them.

Burning of witches was a hangover from pagan times which experienced a revival in Western and Northern Europe in the 16th-18th centuries as a result of the anarchy brought on by the protestant revolt.

It was almost unknown in Christendom during the Middle Ages (whiuch finished about 1450 AD).

Neither the Church nor any civil authority in any Catholic-majority country ever burned (or executed in any other manner) gays, Jews, Muslims or pagans just for being gays, Jews, Muslims or pagans.

And Jews are definitely not pagans. Moslems are generally also not considered to be pagans.

The idea that there is a special class of people called "gays" was invented only 100 years ago inj Germany, and did not become popular anywhere until about 40 years ago.

This is Totaly incorrect. Witches and homosexuals were burned or otherwise killed for centuries by Christians and Jews. And the Spanish inquisition as well as many city's durring the Crusaids killed Jews for refusal to accept Jesus, not to mention the campaign of reprisals the roman empire took after it officially became Christian. your the one who is ruining your credibility.

Also i was not sayin Jews and muslims r pagan, the Christian definition of pagan is one not following the god of Abraham, I simply put pagans after Jews and Muslim and you misinterprited the meaning.

And your statement about gays is flat out laughable. Homosexuals have existed alot longer than 100 years I'm afraid. They have been around quite a long time.
  #18  
Old Jun 27, '12, 6:41 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 16,425
Religion: Christian (seeking admission to the Catholic Church)
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

First of all, the Malleus does appear to contradict earlier disciplinary rulings such as Canon Episcopi. The earlier position wasn't just that witchcraft shouldn't be followed, but that it shouldn't be feared because it was just a delusion.

This isn't a problem for Catholic claims of infallibility, though. Whatever may or may not be the case with earlier disciplinary canons, the Malleus certainly was never officially sanctioned by the Church as a whole. It was the work of a couple of Dominicans who were actually rather unpopular and got into trouble several times with their superiors for their unhinged approach to witchcraft.

At the same time, their opinion on the reality of witchcraft was fairly commonly held. If I remember rightly, Sylvester Prierias (a very prominent Dominican theologian who served as Master of the Sacred Palace at the time of the 95 Theses) held to this view, for instance. It wasn't official dogma at any time that I'm aware of, but it was a common theological opinion that contradicted earlier common theological opinion--the earlier opinion being official enough that you could incur canonical penalties for disagreeing with it.

So there certainly was a change, of the sort that there has been many times in Catholic history. Not enough to challenge basic Catholic claims about infallibility, but enough to show that the continuity of Catholic teaching is a bit more complex than some Catholics are willing to admit

It is not true that this change in opinion was prompted by the Reformation. It took place in the late Middle Ages, decidedly before the Reformation. The biggest wave of witch killings did take place after the Reformation, and mostly in areas affected by the Reformation, though (in contrast to the claims sometimes made on this forum) it was not carried out exclusively or even predominantly by Protestants (Protestants and Catholics, in the affected areas, seem to have been equivalently enthusiastic as far as I can tell).

And yes, Catholic church officials did on occasion hand over witches to be burned, just as they did with heretics. However, secular authorities took more and more control over the process, and this corresponded with an increasing rate of death sentences. In the areas where centralized "Inquisitions" were in place (Spain, Portugal, and Rome), and thus where the Church retained more control over the prosecution of witchcraft, the death count was much lower. So it's not true that the Church played no role, but it certainly didn't play the primary role and was relatively much more rational and lenient in its approach than civil authorities were. (My immediate source for this summary is Brian P. Levack, "The Great Witch-Hunt," in Handbook of European History, 1400-1600, vol. 2, pp. 607-40, esp. 614-15. I've read other scholarly treatments of the subject in the past, which agree with this summary, but this is the text I have in front of me at the moment.)

Edwin
  #19  
Old Jun 28, '12, 5:47 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Posts: 3,438
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter24 View Post
This is Totaly incorrect.
I could say "go and read a real history book instead of bklindly swallowing outrageous myths" but because I'm in a kind and patient mood I'll give you some help.
Quote:
Witches and homosexuals were burned or otherwise killed for centuries by Christians and Jews.
I never said they weren't.
Quote:
And the Spanish inquisition as well as many city's durring the Crusaids killed Jews for refusal to accept Jesus
Absolute nonsense and totally impossible. By definition the Spanish and every other church Inquisition could only investigate the beliefs and practices of baptised Christians. Jews and other non-Christians were totally ignored by and immune from all actions of the Inquisitions. And of course the Inquisitions never killed anybody, but in fact as I said saved many innocent people (and even many probably guilty people) from being killed by civil authorities. The Inquisitions were the most liberal and humane court system that the world had ever seen up until that time. It was the inquisitions which introduced many of the advances in court procedure which we take for granted today and whic h have been adiopted in virtually all miodern court systems to make things fairer for the accused person. They even had some extra features whuich have not been generally adopted, for example the accused person was first invited to write a list of as many names as he wanted to, of people whom he regarded as his enemies or who he thought had some reason to be biased against him. Thenceforth tall these people were banned from giving any evidence against him and any accusation made by any of them was automatically dismissed!
Quote:
not to mention the campaign of reprisals the roman empire took after it officially became Christian. your the one who is ruining your credibility.
Really, you should do stand-up comedy. Please provide a link to any paper by any actual historian about this supposed "campaign of reprisals".
Quote:
Also i was not sayin Jews and muslims r pagan, the Christian definition of pagan is one not following the god of Abraham, I simply put pagans after Jews and Muslim and you misinterprited the meaning.
No, I took the meaning that you wrote, "Jews, Moslems and other pagans". Don't blame me for your inability to express what you mean.
Quote:
And your statement about gays is flat out laughable. Homosexuals have existed alot longer than 100 years I'm afraid. They have been around quite a long time.
Sodomy has been around for millennia. The idea that there is a distinct group of people called "Gays" or "homosexuals" has been around as I said only about 100 years, and it was only much later that most people heard of this idea, and even later that a significant number of people embraced the idea. This is documented historical fact as are all of teh other historical facts I referred to above.
  #20  
Old Jun 28, '12, 5:55 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Posts: 3,438
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini View Post
The biggest wave of witch killings did take place after the Reformation, and mostly in areas affected by the Reformation, though (in contrast to the claims sometimes made on this forum) it was not carried out exclusively or even predominantly by Protestants (Protestants and Catholics, in the affected areas, seem to have been equivalently enthusiastic as far as I can tell).
Most likely most of the Catholics' enthusiasm was largely motivated by a desire to avoid the accusation by their protestant rulers that Catholics were overly tolerant of "witches".
  #21  
Old Jun 29, '12, 6:04 am
Contarini Contarini is offline
Forum Elder
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Posts: 16,425
Religion: Christian (seeking admission to the Catholic Church)
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee View Post
Most likely most of the Catholics' enthusiasm was largely motivated by a desire to avoid the accusation by their protestant rulers that Catholics were overly tolerant of "witches".
Why is this likely, let alone most likely?

Do you have evidence of such accusations, or a concern to avoid them on the part of Catholics?

And how does your hypothesis account for the significant amount of witch-burning that took place in the fifteenth century? Did Catholics have prophetic knowledge that Protestants would arise and accuse them of excessive leniency?

Scholars who study this subject are unanimous that witch-burning was an "ecumenical" endeavor. Your hypothesis is a desperate attempt to avoid the evidence.

Edwin
  #22  
Old Jul 2, '12, 4:29 am
Petergee Petergee is offline
Regular Member
 
Join Date: July 24, 2005
Posts: 3,438
Religion: Catholic
Default Re: Church changed teaching about Witchcraft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contarini View Post
Why is this likely, let alone most likely?

Do you have evidence of such accusations, or a concern to avoid them on the part of Catholics?

And how does your hypothesis account for the significant amount of witch-burning that took place in the fifteenth century? Did Catholics have prophetic knowledge that Protestants would arise and accuse them of excessive leniency?

Scholars who study this subject are unanimous that witch-burning was an "ecumenical" endeavor. Your hypothesis is a desperate attempt to avoid the evidence.

Edwin
Your uncharitable characterisations of me and my motivations are both quite incorrect. I seek to learn and promote the truth, and certainly do not seek to avoid or deny any aspect of the truth. .

As you yourself just said, "The biggest wave of witch killings did take place after the Reformation, and mostly in areas affected by the Reformation". Surely it would be natural for the protestants and their leaders to ask themselves why this is so, and (given the highly confrontational and far from ecumenical consitions of the times) find the answer in a moral fault on the path of Catholics and/or the false doctrines of Catholicism.
Closed Thread

Go Back   Catholic Answers Forums > Forums > Apologetics

Bookmarks

Tags
hammer, heresy, malleus, witch, witchcraft

Thread Tools Search Thread
Search Thread:

Advanced Search
Display

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



Prayer Intentions

Most Active Groups
8448Meet and talk,talk talk
Last by: jerrythetrucker
5139CAF Prayer Warriors Support Group
Last by: hopeful01
4424Devotion to the Sorrowful Mother
Last by: DesertSister62
4037OCD/Scrupulosity Group
Last by: eschator83
3863SOLITUDE
Last by: beth40n2
3733Let's empty Purgatory
Last by: DesertSister62
3316Petitions Before the Blessed Sacrament
Last by: Amiciel
3280Poems and Reflections
Last by: tonyg
3223Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans
Last by: Rifester
3107For seniors and shut- ins
Last by: flower lady



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 1:00 am.

Home RSS Feeds - Home - Archive - Top

Copyright © 2004-2014, Catholic Answers.